I’ll give my take on it. Something many fail to grasp is that it’s not about a singular thing, you need to look at the context. Let’s go through some of it:
Andreas Kling, lead developer of (now-)Ladybird, rejects PR that changes “he” to “they” in documentation.
This is the most frequently mentioned example of Andreas’ issues.
The “he” in question referred to any user, where “they” is already commonly used instead by everything from companies, to news, to the Linux Kernel docs (an arguably much more important software project).
Andreas’ exact words: “This project is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics.”
This code was eventually merged 3 years laters in a different PR, this time described as “Grammar fixes” (it changes even more pronouns to gender neutral than the original did).
This PR was merged two hours after its creation and coincidentally around a month after Andreas announced his stepping down from the project.
Andreas Kling likes interacting with far-right, queerphobic, or otherwise controversial persons.
Here’s him calling Brendan Eich, known homophobe, kicked out of Mozilla for… being a homophobe, now CEO of the foremost crypto browser, infamous for its bravery and attracting like-minded fans, “Senpai.”
Trudging through Bryan’s slop wears on the mind, but here’s another example of him being ridiculous. Highlight of the article: “There are multiple Software and Computer organizations which have declared their support for the Trans fetish over the last few years…”
Read anything by Bryan, then look into what he’s talking about. There are at least as many examples, as there are times Bryan has touched upon LGBT topics or linux in recent years.
Here’s relatively prominent KDE developer Niccolò’s hour long video detailing how Bryan is a horrible, lying “journalist,” and how people need to stop giving him a stage.
He also often interacts with other various degrees of right-leaning users on twitter, a platform he describes as full of positive energy, unlike Mastodon, which he’s not a fan of.
Other quirky things about Andreas that could be irrelevant in isolation but… please, put the pieces together. I’m begging you, look at the full picture. Is there truly nothing off about all of this?
Hey, remember that time Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux, called himself a “woke communist” on a public rant on the fediverse? He must be having an identity crisis now, huh.
Someone once implied that if people didn’t like Andreas’ views now, they would’ve abhorred his Liked list before Elon made those private. It’s a random person’s word, so don’t take it as fact, but I need to share this because I’ve seen similar situations before, and it fits the pattern.
Would I look at that PR and say I’m not touching Andreas with a ten-foot pole? Maybe that’s excessive. Would I ignore all the rest and say he’s just misunderstood? Hell no. For all its issues, I do hope Ladybird succeeds as a new browser engine because the internet needs more of those. But I cannot support it until Andreas gets his shit sorted.
I honestly can’t tell if there’s a disguise. Maybe there isn’t! He seems to genuinely and stubbornly believe in the apolitical-centrist stuff, which you wouldn’t think him capable of since he’s so intelligent when it comes to programming… but programming intelligence is not necessarily applicable anywhere else.
Disappointing and unsurprising. He and Bryan are very similar, complaining that “social justice warriors” are “ruining open source” whenever they see pushback against shitty actions, then getting right back to doing way worse.
There is Verso, which aims to build a browser on Servo, but it’s still very young (though, I suppose that applies to LB as well). Ideally, I’d like to see all these projects grow into complete solutions. I think that’d be healthier for the internet. It’s just really difficult to support Ladybird with Andreas as he’s acting right now.
I’m a bit hesitant to comment further because this thread is already quite long, but assuming it’s a genuine question I can send a DM and we can talk there, if you want?
I refuse to believe a reasonable, healthy mind sees someone cheering for queerphobes and thinks there’s nothing wrong with that. “He’s just interacting, he doesn’t do the bad things” has to be the most insane or trollish response to this, because it shows you don’t understand or outright don’t care about how this harms people.
By that absurd logic, if I like interacting with Nazis on the daily it’s fine, so long as I don’t actually pull the trigger on the jews myself. When people call me out, I’ll just say I’m apolitical. That’s how Andreas describes himself, by the way. Apolitical.
I’m not calling Andreas an outright Nazi, to be extra clear. If I had to take a guess, I’d say he’s a right leaning “thinks he’s a centrist and apolitical” person who doesn’t see the harm in many of the things he supports or is otherwise sheltered from them. This seems to be a trend among self-described centrists.
Maybe I’m the odd one out, and do tell me if you think that’s the case, but when I can, I don’t support homophobes with my wallet nor my words.
It’s like voting with your wallet, but for free. Image is a tool, just like capital, and I feel that contributing to theirs is a form of (albeit minor) support. Maybe I should’ve used supporting, or another word. Point is, Andreas does that, and I think it’s because he likes Brendan. Thinks he’s great, shouldn’t have joined the people decrying him for being a homophobe.
People who care about LGBT folks don’t usually like homophobes, and aren’t usually against decrying them. I don’t think this is a good sign for Andreas. That’s the kind of thing that you need to keep in mind when you see that first PR.
Are you trying to convince me that making a neutral meme about a shitty person’s success is equatable to supporting/being a nazi?
No, I tried to make that clear. I actually don’t get how you read it that way. Also, the meme isn’t neutral when you consider how he views Eich, just like it isn’t originally neutral towards Gaben and Steam when gamers use it.
What’s surprising is his complete lack of care that Eich is probably still against gay marriage.
It’s not just a few interactions, it’s Andreas’ entire attitude around these topics. You absolutely can judge people and guess their beliefs from their online actions. Connect the dots, why don’t you?
I’m not “separating the art from the artist” when the artist is alive and frolicking with a homophobe. That’s very much relevant to me, I see LGBT folks being harmed every day due to such indifference.
If you read the commit, you would see it was referring to a built-in non-human account.
In no way did he assume the gender of any people, so who cares if he referred to a built-in account of his operaring system as ‘he’ instead of ‘they’?
A more accurate description would have been ‘it’.
As somebody who also identifies as LGBT, I don’t want or need your permission to feel anything.
I don’t feel guilty for not participating in the cancel culture of the internet.
Sure. Lets just ignore ladybird/serenity and the positive impact Andreas is making because he didn’t accept a commit that changed a pronoun for a system account on the operating system he wrote from a ‘he’ to a ‘they’.
And lets ignore that it’s been changed since. People ‘never’ change, so lets fuck up their entire career and public image for life.
Yeah no thanks.
If you think that comment outweighs all the positive impacts Andreas is making, that’s your prerogative. I’m not interested in holding everyone up to such high expectations.
Sure, ignore him being pals with the homophobe CEO and welcoming Mr. genocide because he made cool tech. Because being a developer puts you above mere ethical issues, and saying “I’m apolitical” makes you immune to criticism.
And lets ignore that it’s been changed since. People ‘never’ change, so lets fuck up their entire career and public image for life.
Andreas hasn’t changed, that’s half the point of my comment. The PR was sent by someone else, merged by someone else, disguised with a different title, and all after his departure announcement. Someone approached him about it later, and Andreas himself admits he hasn’t changed his mind. Did you read nothing? Where’s this change you’re so confident about?
And I’m not ruining his career, that’s absurd. I couldn’t manage, even if I wanted to. Look at the niche forum we’re in. Even so, I’ve defended his work, his skill, the very idea of Ladybird, the need for more browser engines, even the tooling. But unless people shut up and never criticize him, it’s just not enough for you.
If you think that comment outweighs all the positive impacts Andreas is making, that’s your prerogative. I’m not interested in holding everyone up to such high expectations.
“Don’t unnecessarily chum up to homophobes and genocide defenders” aren’t high expectations. They’re ridiculously low-hanging fruit, considering our history. Absolutely pathetic excusing of his actions.
Ah yes, because you absolutely must hate and dehumanise everyone who shares a different belief to you. You aren’t allowed to speak to or be friendly to anyone who has shared shitty views in the past, because how else could we possibly know that you don’t share 100% of their opinions?
You’re free to limit your communication to only those who share your views, if that’s what you find comfortable. But there can be many mutually-benefical reasons to befriend those who you dislike.
Anyway, I’m about done with this conversation, as I don’t believe either of us will come out of it with a different view.
Feel free to get the last word in if that helps you sleep easier.
Seeing that you replied to a comment that’s almost a week old, I wouldn’t be surprised if you do.
Seeing that you replied to a comment that’s almost a week old, I wouldn’t be surprised if you do.
I really hope no one reading thinks this redditor behavior is as cool as the author does. Dude seemingly can’t get the point they’re arguing against, so this is all that’s left, I guess.
Yeah buddy, this is to sleep better at night. You’ve shown you’re not stopping the high-school tier debate club logic and the goofy-ass mic-drops.
I’ll give my take on it. Something many fail to grasp is that it’s not about a singular thing, you need to look at the context. Let’s go through some of it:
Would I look at that PR and say I’m not touching Andreas with a ten-foot pole? Maybe that’s excessive. Would I ignore all the rest and say he’s just misunderstood? Hell no. For all its issues, I do hope Ladybird succeeds as a new browser engine because the internet needs more of those. But I cannot support it until Andreas gets his shit sorted.
P.P.S. I’m tired, of all this.
Oh wow… He seeks to be ant alt right in disguise. God damn it.
I honestly can’t tell if there’s a disguise. Maybe there isn’t! He seems to genuinely and stubbornly believe in the apolitical-centrist stuff, which you wouldn’t think him capable of since he’s so intelligent when it comes to programming… but programming intelligence is not necessarily applicable anywhere else.
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There’s much more controversy surrounding Vaxry.
Disappointing and unsurprising. He and Bryan are very similar, complaining that “social justice warriors” are “ruining open source” whenever they see pushback against shitty actions, then getting right back to doing way worse.
There’s Servo too. So ladybird can crash and burn for all I care.
In fairness, these projects have different objectives. Ladybird aims to be a full browser, Servo doesn’t.
There is Verso, which aims to build a browser on Servo, but it’s still very young (though, I suppose that applies to LB as well). Ideally, I’d like to see all these projects grow into complete solutions. I think that’d be healthier for the internet. It’s just really difficult to support Ladybird with Andreas as he’s acting right now.
I fully agree with you that this guy is a sad little dipshit that should have access to a calculator but whats wrong with being a centrist?
I’m a bit hesitant to comment further because this thread is already quite long, but assuming it’s a genuine question I can send a DM and we can talk there, if you want?
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As a deeply progressive person I agree with the responses that technical projects are not an appropriate arena to advertise personal politics.
Further more, I am offended by vigilantes who hate and dehumanise anyone who dares hold a different belief to them.
The advent of #LadybirdBrowser is a very positive thing imho
So there’s no issue with Andreas, just some people he’s interacted with before?
It’s great to hear he doesn’t partake in dehumanising others for their past behaviour/statements :)
I refuse to believe a reasonable, healthy mind sees someone cheering for queerphobes and thinks there’s nothing wrong with that. “He’s just interacting, he doesn’t do the bad things” has to be the most insane or trollish response to this, because it shows you don’t understand or outright don’t care about how this harms people.
By that absurd logic, if I like interacting with Nazis on the daily it’s fine, so long as I don’t actually pull the trigger on the jews myself. When people call me out, I’ll just say I’m apolitical. That’s how Andreas describes himself, by the way. Apolitical.
I’m not calling Andreas an outright Nazi, to be extra clear. If I had to take a guess, I’d say he’s a right leaning “thinks he’s a centrist and apolitical” person who doesn’t see the harm in many of the things he supports or is otherwise sheltered from them. This seems to be a trend among self-described centrists.
What cheering?
Are you trying to convince me that making a neutral meme about a shitty person’s success is equatable to supporting/being a nazi?
Maybe I’m the odd one out, and do tell me if you think that’s the case, but when I can, I don’t support homophobes with my wallet nor my words.
It’s like voting with your wallet, but for free. Image is a tool, just like capital, and I feel that contributing to theirs is a form of (albeit minor) support. Maybe I should’ve used supporting, or another word. Point is, Andreas does that, and I think it’s because he likes Brendan. Thinks he’s great, shouldn’t have joined the people decrying him for being a homophobe.
People who care about LGBT folks don’t usually like homophobes, and aren’t usually against decrying them. I don’t think this is a good sign for Andreas. That’s the kind of thing that you need to keep in mind when you see that first PR.
No, I tried to make that clear. I actually don’t get how you read it that way. Also, the meme isn’t neutral when you consider how he views Eich, just like it isn’t originally neutral towards Gaben and Steam when gamers use it.
The guy literally created javascript. It shouldn’t be a surprise that somebody who’s developing a web browser holds some amount of respect for him.
We could argue about this all day, but neither of us are Andreas, so we shouldn’t be assuming his beliefs based on a few interactions on social media.
None of this should get in the way of the web browser’s success anyway, because it’s not relevant to the project.
What’s surprising is his complete lack of care that Eich is probably still against gay marriage.
It’s not just a few interactions, it’s Andreas’ entire attitude around these topics. You absolutely can judge people and guess their beliefs from their online actions. Connect the dots, why don’t you?
I’m not “separating the art from the artist” when the artist is alive and frolicking with a homophobe. That’s very much relevant to me, I see LGBT folks being harmed every day due to such indifference.
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If you read the commit, you would see it was referring to a built-in non-human account.
In no way did he assume the gender of any people, so who cares if he referred to a built-in account of his operaring system as ‘he’ instead of ‘they’?
A more accurate description would have been ‘it’.
As somebody who also identifies as LGBT, I don’t want or need your permission to feel anything.
I don’t feel guilty for not participating in the cancel culture of the internet.
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Sure. Lets just ignore ladybird/serenity and the positive impact Andreas is making because he didn’t accept a commit that changed a pronoun for a system account on the operating system he wrote from a ‘he’ to a ‘they’.
And lets ignore that it’s been changed since. People ‘never’ change, so lets fuck up their entire career and public image for life.
Yeah no thanks.
If you think that comment outweighs all the positive impacts Andreas is making, that’s your prerogative. I’m not interested in holding everyone up to such high expectations.
If that makes me a simp in your eyes, so be it.
Sure, ignore him being pals with the homophobe CEO and welcoming Mr. genocide because he made cool tech. Because being a developer puts you above mere ethical issues, and saying “I’m apolitical” makes you immune to criticism.
Andreas hasn’t changed, that’s half the point of my comment. The PR was sent by someone else, merged by someone else, disguised with a different title, and all after his departure announcement. Someone approached him about it later, and Andreas himself admits he hasn’t changed his mind. Did you read nothing? Where’s this change you’re so confident about?
And I’m not ruining his career, that’s absurd. I couldn’t manage, even if I wanted to. Look at the niche forum we’re in. Even so, I’ve defended his work, his skill, the very idea of Ladybird, the need for more browser engines, even the tooling. But unless people shut up and never criticize him, it’s just not enough for you.
“Don’t unnecessarily chum up to homophobes and genocide defenders” aren’t high expectations. They’re ridiculously low-hanging fruit, considering our history. Absolutely pathetic excusing of his actions.
Ah yes, because you absolutely must hate and dehumanise everyone who shares a different belief to you. You aren’t allowed to speak to or be friendly to anyone who has shared shitty views in the past, because how else could we possibly know that you don’t share 100% of their opinions?
You’re free to limit your communication to only those who share your views, if that’s what you find comfortable. But there can be many mutually-benefical reasons to befriend those who you dislike.
Anyway, I’m about done with this conversation, as I don’t believe either of us will come out of it with a different view.
Feel free to get the last word in if that helps you sleep easier. Seeing that you replied to a comment that’s almost a week old, I wouldn’t be surprised if you do.
I really hope no one reading thinks this redditor behavior is as cool as the author does. Dude seemingly can’t get the point they’re arguing against, so this is all that’s left, I guess.
Yeah buddy, this is to sleep better at night. You’ve shown you’re not stopping the high-school tier debate club logic and the goofy-ass mic-drops.