Bobr

Just choose a different instance :)

Well, you raise a valid point, it’s also bad of course.
It’s just that “forcing you to do a thing (a physical labor) you do not want to do” and “forcing you to give up a part of your salary” are different things.

Or is it just being forced to directly do morally abhorrent things?

Not just “morally abhorrent things”, any forced labor is wrong.

I don’t think I am “arguing semantics” (whatever that means), and you evaded the question :(

In the event of a real defensive war, where your nation is invaded with the intent of conquest or subjugation, you will not have a lack of volunteers. You will have a lack of trained people.

Hey, I have a (purely theoretical!) question if you don’t mind.

So, if there was (theoretically of course) a war out there, where the government openly admits that they lack volunteers, people are trying to escape the country en masse by illegally crossing the border, and also there were thousands of videos online about that government kidnapping people off the streets (so that they have at least someone to send into the war), would it mean by your definition that such a war is not “with the intent of conquest or subjugation”?

It is abuse and violation of person’s freedom and dignity. It (and people supporting it) should be fought by any means necessary.

I’m way too familiar with liberals labeling everything they don’t like as “fascist propaganda” :)

So, still no.

No. And I would continue helping people evade whatever censorship a government tries to impose on them.

No, why would they? Haven’t you heard that Russia is literally Mordor filled with orcs, while Ukraine (especially under Zelensky’s rule) is a bastion of democracy? I don’t think that western governments/media and especially Zelensky (who doesn’t benefit at all from this war and is the main victim here) would lie to anyone about that!

Now that we got sarcasm out of the way…

If you want to form an informed opinion about it you can start by looking at the map of 2010 elections, where there was basically two candidates, a pro-EU one and pro-Russian one. Take a look at the distribution and percentage of people voting for a particular candidate in particular regions. Then look into the coup that happened in 2014, which powers participated in it (you can listen to their leaked conversations as well), then remember the electoral map you just looked at, and maybe make some conclusions.

That’s “before the invasion” the part.

“After the invasion” part is of course less clear, but again if you want to start making an informed opinion you can start by looking, for example, at the level of freedom people located on Ukraine controlled territories have and that of people on annexed by Russia territories (or just “Russia proper” territories). Who is free to leave at any moment and go anywhere, and who is forbidden to leave the country because the government needs cannon fodder? Who is encouraged to volunteer to join the army with monetary incentives, and who is kidnapped from the street, beaten, held in basements for days and forcefully sent to the meat grinder? Again, you can try to make some conclusions from that, and maybe speculate whether it’s possible that people from one of those groups may want to join the other one.

As a finishing touch - I am Ukrainian, I was born there, and lived most of my life there. Thankfully, I left the country before the war started. If I visit Ukraine - I will most likely be dead in a matter of months (after being kidnapped and beaten by the brave TCC guys). If I visit Russia - I will at most face more scrutiny at the border due to the war. I’m not from an eastern region of Ukraine and I never wanted it to become a part of Russia. You can try to guess which options are preferrable for me currently.

Just checked my battery usage by app.

SimpleX has the first place with 35%, with the next app being the browser with mere 12% :/

The punch line? I’m not even using SimpleX, it’s just installed on my phone because there were a few chats I wanted to join.

Unless it’s auditted and open source then you should assume its spyware.

I do. I use Matrix and recommend it to all my friends.

“Telegram is spyware” was not the original thesis I replied to, it was about “operated by the enemy”.

Sure, what exactly would you like to have a proof for?

I know, right? I was also shocked when I discovered that it’s not just the evil-evil Russia who does the propaganda thing! :)

Is anything I’ve said a lie though? Or maybe misinformation? Or maybe I’m manipulating facts? Or maybe “Russian talking-points” is how you label inconvenient truth that you are not willing to accept? :)

Debunk what I’ve said, show everyone that I’m just a Russian propagandist (or even better - a bot) spreading lies and deceptions!
Ah yeah right, why do that if calling someone a “Russian larper” is a good enough argument for some folks… :)

Thanks, that was an interesting read :)

Of course it doesn’t prove anything (especially that Telegram sends any information about Ukrainians to Russian government!), but at least those allegations indeed have more credibility than the usual “Russia bad”. It also doesn’t say anything about Durov doing something because he had financial problems. And what it definitely doesn’t say is that “Telegram is operated by Russia”.

Yeah, I hear this quite often :)

Every Ukrainian who doesnt want to die for Zelensky is a Russian, yeah yeah yeah heard that one more times than I can count.

Cheers :)

What gives those rumors credibility other than “Russia bad”?

If you have links to some sources with some facts - I’d very much like to read them

Russia literally wants Ukraine wiped out and yet the idiots unable to change an app on their phone because “network effects and habit”

The thing with Zelensky’s propaganda is that externally (with people familiar with the situation only from CNN (or whever you get your information from…)) it works an order of magnitude better than internally… :)

So “idiots” use Telegram because not only they see no threat in it (why would they?), but also because it helps to avoid the very real threat of “lawful mobilization actions” by the government.

Imagine entire country using coms software operated by the enemy.

Do I get it right that you know that

• Pavel Durov (the creator of Telegram) has left Russia after refusing to give government information on Ukrainians during 2014 protests (from his previous project - VK, also used by both people in Russia and Ukraine)
• Russian government’s most extensive blocking campaign/attempt was targeted at Telegram
• Telegram’s headquarters are in UAE

and still somehow make a conclusion that “it is operated by the enemy” (assuming that by enemy you mean Russian government)? I’d like to learn more about this logic :)

but the government is worried that the app is being used as a method of disinformation

Yeah, disinformation…

People just share too many videos of brutal kidnappings and beating of people in broad daylight lawful mobilization actions by conscription officers there.

And what’s even worse, people warn each other about the places where such lawful mobilization actions are taking place today, so that others can avoid them.

Unthinkable, right?