Looks like it’s time to test the waters of Lemmy. This one has generally gone over poorly on reddit every time it’s come up, so let’s find out how it does here:
What about people who have a high degree of difficulty getting around? A good friend of mine has a herniated disc and a bunch of neurological issues as a result of a car accident he was in, he walks with one of those rolling walkers at a very slow speed grunting and groaning the entire time, and that was at the best of times. He barely manages shopping by using those electric cart things, but with all the reaching and bending he has to do, by the time he got back out to the car he was sweating like crazy and in obvious pain, even with my help. The idea of expecting someone in that situation to endure another couple minutes of horrendous pain just to make someone else’s life very slightly more convenient by bringing his cart back up to the store even from the handicapped parking spaces strikes me as absurd, but he can’t always get help with his shopping so I know he has to sometimes.
I think rules, written or otherwise, should have exceptions to account for extreme circumstances like this, but a lot of online people just go ‘No, if you don’t bring your cart back you’re a BAD PERSON no matter what!’.
The major problem with this kind of pattern is you’re looking to establish edge-case boundaries, rather than the most broadly applicable standard. The attempt to document and "solve for every case just leads to overly complicated and disingenuous discussions. Our fascination and obsession with “accuracy and precision” as applied to human behavior is one that breaks down very quickly unless you’re attempting to be hyper-rational, at which point, any rules assigned to human behavior break down.
In short, “use your best judgement.”
Note: I think that we have passed the golden moment where “human judgement” had any kind of value. There was a long time where we (all humanity) were stumbling in the dark, and we have now stepped back into that cave. But for a brief, shining moment, the percentage of people who had critical reasoning skills was growing, and it was majestic.
What I’m looking to do is point out that the world isn’t ever black-and-white, that the broadly applicable standards - while I agree that they are in fact broadly applicable - are never universal, and that edge-cases exist everywhere and need to be accounted for or the world is just a worse place for everyone. I’m not saying ‘your solution must handle solve for every case’, I’m saying ‘be aware that your solution needs to be flexible enough to account the fact that the real world is messy and things are never as simple as you’d like to believe.’
I am specifically, as you say, advocating for the use of best judgement over moral absolutes (I have heard it said, in person and online, that anyone who doesn’t put a shopping cart back no matter the reason is a shit human being, f.ex, so there are definitely people out there slinging moral absolutes on the subject of shopping carts.)
Not a significant number, no, but also not zero. No the common refrain is as I said it, with the implication that anyone who doesn’t for any reason is a shit human being, and Iono if you know this, but disabled people are part of ‘anyone’ too. My whole point is that they make blanket statements about a thing that annoys them without realizing that some of those carts are out there for some pretty good reasons actually.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule. Likewise, “don’t talk loudly on your phone in public” is a rule everyone should know, but no one’s going to judge you if you’re talking loudly on your phone to 911 because you just saw someone get hit by a car.
Thats like saying ik murders bad but what if the guy you killled kidnapped your whole family and held them hostage, like nah shit well consider it being okay in that case, but that is a fringe case far from common
Equating not putting the shopping cart back with murder is a bit fucking hyperbolic. One of those ends the life of another person and the other very slightly inconveniences them at most. And I now I can’t even take you seriously enough to read the rest of your admittedly-short post after a statement like that.
You say usually, but I’ve seen quite a few people (on the internet and off) who like to make blanket statements like ‘Anyone who doesn’t put the shopping cart back is a shit human being’, so it frequently is what is being discussed, and those folks have to be reminded that the world is not as black and white as they’d like to imagine.
Nah man, language is messy and people are lazy. Language is messy meaning people generally don’t get so detail oriented and pedantic when someone says an absolute that clearly has some exceptions. People are lazy meaning most people aren’t going to care to hash out the specifics of the edge cases that don’t fit the generic statement.
Your test seems to be more about how pedantic everyone is, and god I hope Lemmy loses that to reddit…
Yeah that was definitely a thing I saw a lot more on reddit than here re:‘shit human being’, so fair point, I’m with you in hoping that kind of thing doesn’t come over here/goes away.
The carts go back in the corral so they don’t damage other people’s cars, not for convenience. I’m sorry your friend is hurt but my property shouldn’t be damaged because of that. And nobody’s going to judge him if he leaves it next the handicapped parking space he was in. Anyway, all the grocery stores by me will literally send someone to push the cart and put your groceries in the car for you if you’re unable. The cashiers will even straight up ask if they think you need help.
He always puts them in a place where they won’t be in the way of other cars, lifts a wheel up onto a curb or something so it won’t be blown around by the wind, etc. He is not damaging anyone’s property.
Also I’ve been with him to help him shop several times and never seen anyone offer (and he says he they never offer when he’s by himself), so maybe it’s different where you live? shrug That sounds pretty great for his situation tho.
If he’s putting it up on the curb he’s doing the best for his situation and to me that’s fine. The damage comes from people leaving them just laying around and then the wind picks up. I have been around the block a few times it’s true but in my life I’ve saved at least 3 people’s cars from getting dented by carts I saw flying through the parking lot because of wind.
Does he ask for help? Even if it’s not a normal thing at that store, a nice conversation with a store manager can go a long way in my experience. Maybe it’s because I live in a neighborhood with a significant amount of older folks (at least that’s what it looks like at the grocery store!) but I bet any grocery will do that if you ask.
Fair enough. Yeah fuck leaving it out in the middle of everything or where it can roll/be blown away. If my buddy who gets winded walking to the bathroom can manage it so can everyone else. Although I guess to be fair there are more likely to be curbs near the handicap parking than for most other people, though also they have working legs and cart corrals, so…
I think rules, written or otherwise, should have exceptions to account for extreme circumstances like this, but a lot of online people just go ‘No, if you don’t bring your cart back you’re a BAD PERSON no matter what!’.
To treat any rule as immutable is an idealist junk perspective. Rules, like all ideas, need to be applied to a context, and I personally don’t see the point in codifying every possible exception. Law officials, programmers and others can tell you how Sisyphean that task would be.
So yes, there are exceptions (obviously!). If you’re putting your cart back and you injure your leg, you don’t have to crawl on your arms just to put it back. But we can still generally say “people should put their cart back after shopping” and it’s clear that we’re generalizing.
I think I understand what you are saying, able bodied people can easily forget there are others who have a hard time doing “basic” and “easy” tasks.
I agree with some of the replies you got about being unnecessary and time consuming to state every exception to something but I think that what you pointed out is still very valid. Depending on the culture people grow up in and their personal experiences, stating something like " disabled people sometimes are not able to put the shopping carts back" could be either extremely obvious for them or not at all. Some people will think it’s just about not bothering others with a task that they could easily take care of themselves, others will think about safety like one of the replies you got talking about the wind (I’ve never thought about that one tbh), some will think about damaging people’s property (cars) and others about not giving workers more problems. I think we can all agree that abandoning the cart is bad, even if we are thinking about different reasons, however a lot of people will just blame lazy people for leaving it anywhere and totally forget about disabled people not having other options because it isn’t something that is a part of their lifes.
I wouldn’t say that people not being constantly aware of disabled people having a harder time is inherently ableist, unless they do it on purpose of course, but bringing awareness to the existence of the many obstacles they face in different scenarios is important to make changes that make their life’s easier. Abandoning the cart can also make disabled people’s life harder, for example if it is blocking the safest route for mobility aid users or blind people, wich is something that able bodied people should also take into consideration (and most disabled people who need to leave it somewhere actually take into consideration).
Bringing awareness can make changes, maybe next time someone here sees someone with mobility issues they will ask them if they need help or if they need them to return the cart to its place, changing the place to leave the carts so it is next to disabled parking spots could be planned and requested to stores. Maybe some people will become more aware of the obstacles that others face in their daily lifes.
Put your cart back when you’re done shopping.
I’ll leave this here: https://youtube.com/@cartnarcs
Looks like it’s time to test the waters of Lemmy. This one has generally gone over poorly on reddit every time it’s come up, so let’s find out how it does here:
What about people who have a high degree of difficulty getting around? A good friend of mine has a herniated disc and a bunch of neurological issues as a result of a car accident he was in, he walks with one of those rolling walkers at a very slow speed grunting and groaning the entire time, and that was at the best of times. He barely manages shopping by using those electric cart things, but with all the reaching and bending he has to do, by the time he got back out to the car he was sweating like crazy and in obvious pain, even with my help. The idea of expecting someone in that situation to endure another couple minutes of horrendous pain just to make someone else’s life very slightly more convenient by bringing his cart back up to the store even from the handicapped parking spaces strikes me as absurd, but he can’t always get help with his shopping so I know he has to sometimes.
I think rules, written or otherwise, should have exceptions to account for extreme circumstances like this, but a lot of online people just go ‘No, if you don’t bring your cart back you’re a BAD PERSON no matter what!’.
The major problem with this kind of pattern is you’re looking to establish edge-case boundaries, rather than the most broadly applicable standard. The attempt to document and "solve for every case just leads to overly complicated and disingenuous discussions. Our fascination and obsession with “accuracy and precision” as applied to human behavior is one that breaks down very quickly unless you’re attempting to be hyper-rational, at which point, any rules assigned to human behavior break down.
In short, “use your best judgement.”
Note: I think that we have passed the golden moment where “human judgement” had any kind of value. There was a long time where we (all humanity) were stumbling in the dark, and we have now stepped back into that cave. But for a brief, shining moment, the percentage of people who had critical reasoning skills was growing, and it was majestic.
What I’m looking to do is point out that the world isn’t ever black-and-white, that the broadly applicable standards - while I agree that they are in fact broadly applicable - are never universal, and that edge-cases exist everywhere and need to be accounted for or the world is just a worse place for everyone. I’m not saying ‘your solution must handle solve for every case’, I’m saying ‘be aware that your solution needs to be flexible enough to account the fact that the real world is messy and things are never as simple as you’d like to believe.’
I am specifically, as you say, advocating for the use of best judgement over moral absolutes (I have heard it said, in person and online, that anyone who doesn’t put a shopping cart back no matter the reason is a shit human being, f.ex, so there are definitely people out there slinging moral absolutes on the subject of shopping carts.)
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Not a significant number, no, but also not zero. No the common refrain is as I said it, with the implication that anyone who doesn’t for any reason is a shit human being, and Iono if you know this, but disabled people are part of ‘anyone’ too. My whole point is that they make blanket statements about a thing that annoys them without realizing that some of those carts are out there for some pretty good reasons actually.
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Did you manage to overlook this point?
Of course there are exceptions to every rule. Likewise, “don’t talk loudly on your phone in public” is a rule everyone should know, but no one’s going to judge you if you’re talking loudly on your phone to 911 because you just saw someone get hit by a car.
You can’t call the police or an ambulance if you’re at the movies!
Thats like saying ik murders bad but what if the guy you killled kidnapped your whole family and held them hostage, like nah shit well consider it being okay in that case, but that is a fringe case far from common
Equating not putting the shopping cart back with murder is a bit fucking hyperbolic. One of those ends the life of another person and the other very slightly inconveniences them at most. And I now I can’t even take you seriously enough to read the rest of your admittedly-short post after a statement like that.
Not every comparison is literal, and you focused on the wrong part.
Maybe tuck the godawful analogies away til the end next time then? shrug
There are always outliers and exceptions to rules, they are usually not who/what is being discussed lol
You say usually, but I’ve seen quite a few people (on the internet and off) who like to make blanket statements like ‘Anyone who doesn’t put the shopping cart back is a shit human being’, so it frequently is what is being discussed, and those folks have to be reminded that the world is not as black and white as they’d like to imagine.
Nah man, language is messy and people are lazy. Language is messy meaning people generally don’t get so detail oriented and pedantic when someone says an absolute that clearly has some exceptions. People are lazy meaning most people aren’t going to care to hash out the specifics of the edge cases that don’t fit the generic statement.
Your test seems to be more about how pedantic everyone is, and god I hope Lemmy loses that to reddit…
Yeah that was definitely a thing I saw a lot more on reddit than here re:‘shit human being’, so fair point, I’m with you in hoping that kind of thing doesn’t come over here/goes away.
The carts go back in the corral so they don’t damage other people’s cars, not for convenience. I’m sorry your friend is hurt but my property shouldn’t be damaged because of that. And nobody’s going to judge him if he leaves it next the handicapped parking space he was in. Anyway, all the grocery stores by me will literally send someone to push the cart and put your groceries in the car for you if you’re unable. The cashiers will even straight up ask if they think you need help.
He always puts them in a place where they won’t be in the way of other cars, lifts a wheel up onto a curb or something so it won’t be blown around by the wind, etc. He is not damaging anyone’s property.
Also I’ve been with him to help him shop several times and never seen anyone offer (and he says he they never offer when he’s by himself), so maybe it’s different where you live? shrug That sounds pretty great for his situation tho.
If he’s putting it up on the curb he’s doing the best for his situation and to me that’s fine. The damage comes from people leaving them just laying around and then the wind picks up. I have been around the block a few times it’s true but in my life I’ve saved at least 3 people’s cars from getting dented by carts I saw flying through the parking lot because of wind.
Does he ask for help? Even if it’s not a normal thing at that store, a nice conversation with a store manager can go a long way in my experience. Maybe it’s because I live in a neighborhood with a significant amount of older folks (at least that’s what it looks like at the grocery store!) but I bet any grocery will do that if you ask.
Fair enough. Yeah fuck leaving it out in the middle of everything or where it can roll/be blown away. If my buddy who gets winded walking to the bathroom can manage it so can everyone else. Although I guess to be fair there are more likely to be curbs near the handicap parking than for most other people, though also they have working legs and cart corrals, so…
To treat any rule as immutable is an idealist junk perspective. Rules, like all ideas, need to be applied to a context, and I personally don’t see the point in codifying every possible exception. Law officials, programmers and others can tell you how Sisyphean that task would be.
So yes, there are exceptions (obviously!). If you’re putting your cart back and you injure your leg, you don’t have to crawl on your arms just to put it back. But we can still generally say “people should put their cart back after shopping” and it’s clear that we’re generalizing.
I think I understand what you are saying, able bodied people can easily forget there are others who have a hard time doing “basic” and “easy” tasks.
I agree with some of the replies you got about being unnecessary and time consuming to state every exception to something but I think that what you pointed out is still very valid. Depending on the culture people grow up in and their personal experiences, stating something like " disabled people sometimes are not able to put the shopping carts back" could be either extremely obvious for them or not at all. Some people will think it’s just about not bothering others with a task that they could easily take care of themselves, others will think about safety like one of the replies you got talking about the wind (I’ve never thought about that one tbh), some will think about damaging people’s property (cars) and others about not giving workers more problems. I think we can all agree that abandoning the cart is bad, even if we are thinking about different reasons, however a lot of people will just blame lazy people for leaving it anywhere and totally forget about disabled people not having other options because it isn’t something that is a part of their lifes.
I wouldn’t say that people not being constantly aware of disabled people having a harder time is inherently ableist, unless they do it on purpose of course, but bringing awareness to the existence of the many obstacles they face in different scenarios is important to make changes that make their life’s easier. Abandoning the cart can also make disabled people’s life harder, for example if it is blocking the safest route for mobility aid users or blind people, wich is something that able bodied people should also take into consideration (and most disabled people who need to leave it somewhere actually take into consideration).
Bringing awareness can make changes, maybe next time someone here sees someone with mobility issues they will ask them if they need help or if they need them to return the cart to its place, changing the place to leave the carts so it is next to disabled parking spots could be planned and requested to stores. Maybe some people will become more aware of the obstacles that others face in their daily lifes.