Well the Greens are still voting to send weapons to the genocide.
That’s indeed correct, it’s a huge problem, it’s something that the Greens’ base has massively criticized about the higher ranks in the party and, as a personal aside, was one of the reasons why I refused to vote for them in the last election (the other being that they were absolutely incompetent in defending their climate politics against the FDP).
So it really doesn’t sound like they disagree with Israel to me.
Best I can do for an up-to-date source is an Article from German newspaper Die Zeit which also mentions Merz’ quote that started this thread. According to the article (not myself!), Greens leader Felix Banaszak argues that Israel is surrounded by enemies that have an interest in destroying it, especially Iran and that they need weapons to defend against possible attacks on their own land. At the same time, he concedes that those same weapons being used in Gaza is a problem which why a nuanced discussion is necessary.
From here on, personal opinion:
That’s why this whole thing is so difficult. If someone who says “Israel has a right to defend itself”, some people (apparently including you) take that to mean they have a right to attack Gaza. I can’t look into people’s heads, but if “Israel has a right to defend itself” means “Israel has a right to defend its civilian population inside its pre-1967 core territory, explicitly excluding Gaza and the West Bank”, things sound a lot different. We could still argue all week long if the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948/49 was a good idea. It was probably at least short-sighted. But the fact is that this region has been part of Israel for over 75 years now and not a single Israeli civilian alive today had a say in the matter. Even Netanyahu, as much as I hate him, wasn’t even born when the Green Line was drawn. The world is in the difficult position where it seems almost impossible to protect Israeli and Palestinian civilians at the same time. In an ideal world, we could establish a united Palestine where Jews and Muslims can live together peacefully but let’s face it, that doesn’t sound very realistic. On the other hand, forcefully removing either population can’t be the solution either. Palestinians/Arabs have lived in the region for millennia, as have some of the Jews. And even for those whose families got relocated after WW2, it’s now the region where they, their parents, for some even their grandparents have lived their whole lives. The chance to find a better place for them was in the 1940s, the Allies messed it up and we have to deal with the consequences.
So what do we do now? How do we even talk about the topic, espcially in Germany? If one says even one positive thing about Israel, they immediately get called Zionist and Nazis because apparently it means you fully support the genocide in Gaza. If one sides with Palestine, they also get called Nazis because apparently it means you hate all Jews. And if you say nothing you get called a Nazi because saying nothing apparently means you’re okay with the status quo.
So please, I beg you, stop treating everyone who tries to have a calm and nuanced discussion as the enemy, just because they disagree with you in a few points. I assure you that for the vast majority of people, saving civilian lives on both sides is the top priority. It’s just that this situation is so extremely complex, has been brewing for decades (and if you really want to get into it, since the Crusades or even the Greek, Roman or Babylonian occupation), nobody has a clue how to solve it without making things even worse and everybody feels utterly helpless.
Remember that you were originally citing the electoral success of the Greens to evidence that Germany wasn’t all in support of the genocide. That doesn’t’ really work when you admit that the Greens are, in fact, in support of the genocide.
If someone who says “Israel has a right to defend itself”, some people (apparently including you) take that to mean they have a right to attack Gaza.
Yes, that’s because that’s what it was coined to mean, and overwhelmingly used to mean.
It’s just that this situation is so extremely complex, has been brewing for decades
Technically true of the Holocaust as well, but you still rightfully accuse anyone of saying so of trying to obfuscate a very clear case of right and wrong. The same applies to the Gaza genocide.
I assure you that for the vast majority of people, saving civilian lives on both sides is the top priority.
I assure you that this is not true; the lives of Palestinian civilians are very much not top priority. For many westerners, they are a negative priority.
nobody has a clue how to solve it
Yes, the Nazi’s said the same thing about the Jews. And then they came to the same solution that Israel has come to.
That’s indeed correct, it’s a huge problem, it’s something that the Greens’ base has massively criticized about the higher ranks in the party and, as a personal aside, was one of the reasons why I refused to vote for them in the last election (the other being that they were absolutely incompetent in defending their climate politics against the FDP).
Best I can do for an up-to-date source is an Article from German newspaper Die Zeit which also mentions Merz’ quote that started this thread. According to the article (not myself!), Greens leader Felix Banaszak argues that Israel is surrounded by enemies that have an interest in destroying it, especially Iran and that they need weapons to defend against possible attacks on their own land. At the same time, he concedes that those same weapons being used in Gaza is a problem which why a nuanced discussion is necessary.
From here on, personal opinion:
That’s why this whole thing is so difficult. If someone who says “Israel has a right to defend itself”, some people (apparently including you) take that to mean they have a right to attack Gaza. I can’t look into people’s heads, but if “Israel has a right to defend itself” means “Israel has a right to defend its civilian population inside its pre-1967 core territory, explicitly excluding Gaza and the West Bank”, things sound a lot different. We could still argue all week long if the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948/49 was a good idea. It was probably at least short-sighted. But the fact is that this region has been part of Israel for over 75 years now and not a single Israeli civilian alive today had a say in the matter. Even Netanyahu, as much as I hate him, wasn’t even born when the Green Line was drawn. The world is in the difficult position where it seems almost impossible to protect Israeli and Palestinian civilians at the same time. In an ideal world, we could establish a united Palestine where Jews and Muslims can live together peacefully but let’s face it, that doesn’t sound very realistic. On the other hand, forcefully removing either population can’t be the solution either. Palestinians/Arabs have lived in the region for millennia, as have some of the Jews. And even for those whose families got relocated after WW2, it’s now the region where they, their parents, for some even their grandparents have lived their whole lives. The chance to find a better place for them was in the 1940s, the Allies messed it up and we have to deal with the consequences.
So what do we do now? How do we even talk about the topic, espcially in Germany? If one says even one positive thing about Israel, they immediately get called Zionist and Nazis because apparently it means you fully support the genocide in Gaza. If one sides with Palestine, they also get called Nazis because apparently it means you hate all Jews. And if you say nothing you get called a Nazi because saying nothing apparently means you’re okay with the status quo.
So please, I beg you, stop treating everyone who tries to have a calm and nuanced discussion as the enemy, just because they disagree with you in a few points. I assure you that for the vast majority of people, saving civilian lives on both sides is the top priority. It’s just that this situation is so extremely complex, has been brewing for decades (and if you really want to get into it, since the Crusades or even the Greek, Roman or Babylonian occupation), nobody has a clue how to solve it without making things even worse and everybody feels utterly helpless.
Bonus Nazi points for Baerbock participating in the große Lüge: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/german-foreign-minister-says-she-saw-nonexistent-7-oct-rape-video
“We gotta send weapons to the people committing genocide because Iran!”
Wow another bad excuse to keep sending the new Nazis weapons.
Thank you for nuancing the Holocaust. I wonder if anyone has improved their view of Hitler. I haven’t.
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Remember that you were originally citing the electoral success of the Greens to evidence that Germany wasn’t all in support of the genocide. That doesn’t’ really work when you admit that the Greens are, in fact, in support of the genocide.
Yes, that’s because that’s what it was coined to mean, and overwhelmingly used to mean.
Technically true of the Holocaust as well, but you still rightfully accuse anyone of saying so of trying to obfuscate a very clear case of right and wrong. The same applies to the Gaza genocide.
I assure you that this is not true; the lives of Palestinian civilians are very much not top priority. For many westerners, they are a negative priority.
Yes, the Nazi’s said the same thing about the Jews. And then they came to the same solution that Israel has come to.