Adopting is great. Not everyone should do it.
Autism is difficult. Their lives are not ruined.
I can see some of the arguments of antinatalists but the online culture of it seems to have a nihilism/blackpill problem.
It’s autism, not a death sentence.
To me, it seems like online discussions for any stance, has to turn to it’s most extreme. It’s like their way or highway type of deal. Whatever happened to nuanced discussion, I wonder.
We would certainly be better off without it. Doesn’t it have a much higher likelihood of happening when women bear children around 40? If we know a partial cause then maybe we should avoid it. I saw a billboard about a 58-year-old woman having a baby and I was horrified.
We would certainly be better off without it.
Who, exactly, do you imagine you are speaking for?
Me with autism.
I think it stems from the more difficult cases, and people failing to realize the actual suffering that comes with that.
As with all extremes, a lot of emotions are involved. People who see / experience the hardships don’t feel heard. As the general tendency is that one needs to be alive and that this is good, this hurts people who do not want to live (like this).
Going to a lot of trouble to conceive, and bringing triple the amount of possible suffering that people experience can be felt as worse than a death sentence. Therefore people feel the need to be vocal about this.
But in the end I agree, there is nuance. But there is the extreme as well, which weighs heavier here?
I’m not speaking for autistic people here, but I am speaking as parent to two children (now adults) on the spectrum.
Autistic children do not ruin your life and do not have ruined lives themselves. As with all parenting, sometimes things are very, very difficult and sometimes things are very, very easy. This isn’t unique to raising a neurodiverse child, this is just parenting. The unique challenges that parenting a neurodiverse child brings are 99% of the time caused by how society thinks these children/adults are and assumptions about whats best for them without actually asking them rather than any sort of intrinsic issue caused by their autism or ADHD or any other neurological difference. For the remaining 1% of the time, you just do your best.
The narrative that neurological difference, in particular autism, ruins lives has, in its modern form, been with us since Andrew Wakefield first perpetuated his fraudulent claims of vaccine damage causing autism. It was spread by antivaxx/autism activist parent groups like Jenny McCarthy’s Generation Rescue and the truly despicable people at Autism Speaks. These are the people who’ve ruined lives.
I like you. I have 2 autistic kids (still kids) and one neurotypical kid. There is no difference in raising them. Every kid has their unique challenges. I never raise my children differently unless it requires it.
Are you certain your adult children don’t resent being born with autism?
Because I put on a hella front for my mom. Just throwing that out there.
I’m not naive (or arrogant) enough to think I know everything my kids are thinking and neither am I suggesting their lives are 100% perfect but all of them (on the spectrum or not) are all pretty forthright, confident adults. When they were teens they of course went through some shit related to their being autistic, but none of that was because they were autistic, it was down to how other people/situations made them feel because they were autistic. I’m as sure as any parent can ever be that I’ve never detected any kind of prolonged resentment or unhappiness at the fact of their autism.
We never taught them that ‘autism is a superpower’ because it isn’t. Sometimes it has advantages and sometimes there are disadvantages and describing someone elses life as superpowered puts an unrealistic expectation of happiness and accomplishment on them. By the same token, neither are their lives a ruin and my life as their parent most certainly wasn’t ruined.
it was down to how other people/situations made them feel because they were autistic.
That’s a meaningless distinction. The end result is identical.
It would be foolhardy to say that you–an assumed neurotypical person–need to be close, personal friends with everyone in your life. You select your friends–and they select you–based on how well you fit each other. The fundamental problem is that autistic people, broadly speaking, don’t fit with neurotypical people. A high-functioning autistic person will eventually realize that, and realize just how utterly alone they are in life. They will realize that the people they think of as friends will never think of them as a friend. Their social circle, if they’re lucky, might consist of a small handful of people with overlapping interests, but are not an actual social support network.
I discovered this in 2014 when I failed to complete a suicide, and lost 95% of the people I believed were friends.
I am functional on a surface level. I have a job, I’m mostly self-sufficient, I’m married to someone that is also likely neurodivergent after having been in an abusive relationship for over a decade. I’ve noticed that the less able we are to mask, the more our social circle contracts. We can not reasonably expect that people will life us, or include us in their social circles.
I disagree, its not in my opinion a meaningless distinction at all. A difficulty in cognition might prevent a person from reading War And Peace. Thats a direct result of having a learning disability. Someone with a visual disability who cannot access audio books or braille versions of War And Peace is not being affected by their disability but by the fact an accessible version is not available.
You might argue the end result is the same - an inability to read War And Peace - but the point is that for the person with a visual disability the situation is fixable if society is prepared to make the effort.
In regards to your situation you’ve had terrible experiences but they are not down to the fact youre autistic, they’re down to the fact your NT ‘friends’ weren’t really friends at all. I’m sorry they let you down but I’m pretty sure I could find similar stories where nobody in the story was autistic.
Autism is a disability. A person with an IQ of 50 simply isn’t going to be able to understand War and Peace; you can’t dumb the book down sufficiently for someone to understand if they’re going to struggle all their life to be able to put on shoes that lace instead of using Velcro. People with dyslexia can listen to audiobooks; there’s no audiobook version of deep, fulfilling friendships and social support networks, because people on the autistic spectrum are going to have a hard time offering neurotypical people the what they need. A person that’s on the autism spectrum is never going to be able to have social interactions in the same way that neurotypical people can, and those social interactions are necessary to being able to function in society. Some people on the spectrum may be able to appear normal on a surface level and will be able to get by, but it’s fucking exhausting. People that have the misfortune to be lower functioning than I am may not be able to mask effectively at all.
That’s without even getting into constrained interests, difficulty with coordination and forming positive habits–I still struggle to remember to brush my teeth daily in my middle age–or executive dysfunction.
I never claimed autism wasn’t a disability. The fact that autistic people are disabled in some ways isn’t in question. But its neither just a disability or - like all disabilities - something that isn’t disabling by virtue of the world its part of rather than its intrinsic nature.
For example, you say an autistic person cannot experience social interaction in the same way as a non autistic person. True. But the non autistic person can, with very little adjustment, be aware of that. My kids have good relationships with NT friends and whilst they might not experience them in the same way as NT friendships, they still find them fulfilling.
Those people are likely your kids’ best friends. Your kids are likely not their best friends.
Aside from marrying someone that is also neurodivergent, it is unlikely that your children will ever be the best friend of another person. They may be the friend that offers the most help, the person that always shows up to the party with lots of food and a keg, the ones that are always there with tape, boxes, and a truck when someone needs to pack up and move, the one with a spare couch when someone needs a place to stay for a couple days. …But not the best friend. If they’re very, very lucky, they’ll end up married to someone else that is also neurodivergent; otherwise, they may end up married to someone that is neurotypical, and will be taken advantage of and/or abused by their partner for their entire life.
That’s what you’re missing.
Social interactions end up being lopsided, and can never be anything but.
Yes 95% of your friends aren’t your best friends. They have their own struggle and hardships to deal with. So yes, in your situation both side needed to focus on themselves.
Lastly before being worried about the general population not including you in their social circles, did you ask yourself why you would be in their circles ? Because you were colleagues ? Or neighbour. I also am in a situation were I have virtually no friends and it fucking hurts. Loneliness fucking hurts, it ache the minds and psychology its among the worst pain I ever felt.
Though in the past years I’ve looked not for others but for things that passionated me first. And there I found people which liked me and that I liked. Some people are wildly different than me, others are likeminded but we connected. I don’t know my classmates but I have a few friends among my martial arts club. And I am not unhappy of the lack of connexion I have with my class, I don’t think we’d really fit. Despite the social constructs that claims a student’s first circle must be his class, I don’t, and its fine, I just look elsewhere for people, in place where I fit.
If I may take a moment to ask… what the fuck are you on about, OP? Absolutely nothing in the screenshot suggests anything even remotely related to eugenics. You took that leap all on your own.
It is tangentially related. Eugenics in general is about “improving the gene pool” by letting certain people have children. Autistic people are usually thrown into that camp. People don’t want autistic kids therefore certain individuals shouldn’t have children to reduce that chance. That in spirit is what the post is highlighting.
Now, is the OOP a “eugenicist”? Idk if i can give that conclusion, but the antinatalist rhetoric can be argued to borderline their ideals.
Objectively people with autism will have a harder life because of extra struggles. (Not that you can’t have a good life, but you have a higher chance of struggling). The antinatalism movement is not about “improving the gene pool” or related to eugenicist ideals like you are implying, it is about reducing suffering. And the extreme conclusion is that the only certain way to reduce suffering is to stop breeding. (And not having children is not the same as some selective culling like you are implying is the ‘spirit’ of the post)
This isn’t about exterminating autistic people, if the couple had adopted 3 autistic kids the op likely would not have had an issue. The op is pointing out how the desire to have “biological” children led to them doing a procedure that increased the likelyhood of having more than one child, and increased the likelyhood of complications.
Maybe “ruined 3 lives” is harsh, but I don’t see this as eugenicist. It is standard antinatalism “having multiple children is bad when you could have adopted but your drive for ‘blood children’ led to this and they will now have a statistically more difficult life than their peers so you likely increased the net suffering in society out of selfishness”
Antinatalism is the prelude to ecofascism.
I don’t know. I hate the fact that I was born autistic. Unlike a lot of autistic people, I refuse to think of it as some kind of ‘superpower’ or positive thing.
I was born defective. I’m literally a broken human who doesn’t function correctly.
I know that I sure as hell wish I wasn’t born, and whilst I’m sure those mothers are going to do a great job with their children, I also don’t think that I should have children at the risk of passing it down and letting another person suffer the way I have.
I feel like everyone in this thread are arguing two different things. “My neurodivergence has made my life hell and I wish I never existed in the first place” and “you can live a fullfilling life with neurodivergence” aren’t conflicting concepts to me.
We think similarly. Autism makes life difficult. I think scanning for defective genes early in pregnancy is worthwhile to avoid life destroying issues.
Of course autism has a scale of sorts, you can still live somewhat normally, but it sure as hell doesn’t feel beneficial
My life is hard, therefore I am okay with eugenics
Yeah righto, mate. Sucks for you, but maybe we should just make life easier for the disabled instead of preventing us from existing entirely. Just a thought.
If you were never born then no harm no foul. Nobody is suggesting purging the living.
There are people who suggest that, though
Yeah sure, but when people single out particular demographics as being somehow less deserving of life, people within those demographics who don’t hate their lives tend to get pissy about it for some reason. Go figure.
You are so, so privileged in this regard, you know that right?
It’s like insane the amount of luck you have to be in your position in life where you are autistic and happy and supported and capable of interacting with the world and rich enough to enjoy it.
It’s wonderful you and the others in this thread like you are so privileged. You are rare and that is special and I’m genuinely very glad you all had a chance to exist.
But I have to ask: why do you get to override the views and beliefs of those in the autistic community who are not as privileged as you? You don’t speak for us, just as we don’t/can’t for you. We’re not advocating for eugenics or telling anyone how to live their lives. All we’ve done is talk about ethics and not procreated.
So many of us with autism struggle immensly our whole lives, the world around us is so overwhelming, many of us cannot communicate efficiently or at all, and many of us are isolated, vulnerable to abuse and/or have been abused.
Why are you so angry with us for sharing with our autistic community that our lives are so difficult that we wouldn’t want to have children who would suffer far worse that we have?Maybe you can’t comprehend this? Idk. Maybe you think we’re too autistic and retarded to have our own voice and make decisions about our own bodies?
This instance on us needing to happily want to add more overwhelmed and suicidal offspring to the already overwhelmed suicidal world around us, is creepy.
It really is great that you are young and privileged and hopefull enough to want to make the world a better place because you have so much faith for humanity changing and everything, but we’re kinda running out of time for all that now.
Potential offspring will suffer worse than any of us ever have as climate collapse and resource depletion, and not to mention the global rise in fascism, economic collapse (and potentially ww3) and all happening and escalating in the very real near future.But you keep protesting and doing your social activism work though, I hope it works out for you and you succeed in making having autism easier for people like you and all your children, and you all enjoy the few decades we all have left before the food and water run out and the planet becomes to hot and unstable for human life.
You do you. And let us do our thing please.It’s like insane the amount of luck you have to be in your position in life where you are autistic and happy and supported and capable of interacting with the world and rich enough to enjoy it.
Autism is a spectrum, not a binary. It is likely that the vast majority of autistic people lead lives that are, for want of a better word, ‘normal’.
Of course, it could also be that all people are autistic to some extent.
Yeah, I am very privileged in a lot of ways. I understand that much, and am extremely grateful for it. I also understand that my opinions are at least in part derived from my privileged personal experience. You’re absolutely right in that I cannot speak to the experience of someone who lacks the support I have. I just think that of the billions whose lives are less privileged than my own, many would nevertheless consider their lives to be worth living. I find it tragic when some don’t, but I don’t think that that is necessarily a universally held opinion by the underprivileged.
I just have to ask: why do you insist on putting questions to me that have false premises? Nowhere in this thread have I said that mine is the universal Autistic^TM view, and yet you ask me why I feel I have the right to override people’s opinions. Hell, I don’t think anyone else in this thread has argued that there is any obligation to procreate. On the contrary, I have seen people people making the universal claim that autistic lives are especially not worth living and making the prescriptive claim that autists should not reproduce. That is a eugenicist argument.
So you and all the other’s in this thread who have been actively insulting and angry and putting words like ‘eugenics’ in our mouths to shut us down, and calling us stupid, mentally ill, edgelords and psychopaths etc.
You don’t think you’ve been overriding our views as members of the autistic community? Or claiming we are wrong and dangerously mentally unsound for holding them? And you haven’t seen anyone advocating for this topic to be banned on social media so we can no longer discuss it?..
Your opinion that autistic people with antinatalist views are advocating eugenics, is so full of logical fallacies I felt like a dick writing them all out (I can put them back if you want tho, I’m just trying not to be too offensive here).
Most people who hear about antinatalism assume stupid shit and get angry and start with the character insults and accusations of racism and eugenics, and about how antinatalism means wanting to mass murder and segregate society.
And most people, like you, refuse to listen when it’s explained.
Antinatalists are individuals who have independantly chosen not to procreate for the shared ethical reason of reducing suffering.
I doubt most antinatalists are even aware of the term, they’re just people who have looked at the world around them and chosen not to add to it because it’s awful.
And yeah, as a person with basic empathy It’s really hard to look at the world and not feel sad when you learn people willingly procreate with debilitating hereditary conditions and are knowingly bringing potential suffering into the world for purely selfish reasons.
This is not a world ANYONE should be looking at and wanting to bring more life into, autistic or not.
Talking about it being upsetting and unethical isn’t advocating for eugenics.
Antinatalists, autistic or otherwise, aren’t forcing anyone to do anything, and talking about our feelings isn’t hurting anyone unless folk like you decide to assume nasty shit about us and be rude.
Antinatalists having this conversation somewhere you can see it, are not some eugenist plot to harm people with a sterility causing memetic virus, nor is it some wild attempt at converting the masses into ‘’“genetic purity”" by forcing idiots like you to call us names because you won’t fucking read what we’re even actually saying but you’re convinced we’re evil.
I genuinely doubt most antinatalists even really talk about this anywhere but online in antinatalist spaces, and when it comes up on other forums like it has here. It’s not exactly light conversation to have irl when most people react like they have here, or worse.
.
And forgive me if this is a false equivalency but if you believe antinatalism is stupid and we’re all crazy eugenicists for not passing down our suffering, but apparently don’t believe we should instead be popping out kids like bunnies and gurning about how great everything is,
what do you want from us instead then?To just not fucking talk about it?
(Sorry, I failed at not being offensive. I’m too tired to care much right now though tbh but if it’s any consolation, it’s really not personal, I’m just tired, hate most people, and trying to finish this before i go to bed)
maybe we should just make life easier for the disabled
So when is that gonna happen
Believe it or not, some people are actually working on that instead of just giving up on the world ever improving.
The people that want to restrict reproduction are acting like eugenicists? I’m shocked. This is my shocked face.
Antinatalism says nothing about restricting reproduction, it is just the principle that people should abstain from reproduction. Going about that by forced sterilization, coercion, abuse, or eugenics would be bad for obvious reasons.
not what antinatalist says
Going about that by forced sterilization, coercion, abuse, or eugenics would be bad for obvious reasons
Yeah an Mein Kampf is a book. The thing is that if antinatalism would genuinely improve the world it means it does have the goal to be implemented in all of society. This mean you’re gonna need to set a standard through rules and to enforce them. Those are the means.
Oh and if Antinatalism think having children is already bad, it clearly present having disabled children as worse
it clearly present having disabled children as worse
What makes you think that? Antinatalism is just a blanket statement of “its best to not reproduce”. We don’t discriminate that statement to any certain type of individual.
it is just the principle that people should abstain from reproduction.
Which is griping about reproduction followed by trying to shame people when they don’t take the same principled stand. And a quick visit over to the sub shows a few people taking principled stands for themselves and a whole lot blackpilled edgelord “I hate breeders” horseshit. And sure enough there’s a different post on the top page ranting about parents with disabilities having kids. Which sounds like… what?
The people that have hard opinions about reproduction are acting like eugenicists in that sub.
A philosophy is different from a Reddit page.
Why do they think autism is some sort of horror story where kids suffer in agony or something?
Autism Speaks played a huuuge part in making that the dominant narrative about autism for the past 20 years or so.
In the 00s (maybe early 10s?) one of the videos they made for parents of newly diagnosed children had a parent talking about how she was considering driving off a bridge to kill herself and her autistic child, but didn’t because her non-autistic child was also in the car. This was presented as totally normal and just a way to prepare for how an autistic child will ruin your life.
Autism Speaks is disgusting. What an awful organization. I wish more people knew that.
But, there must be ways to manage the ill effects of Autism. Parents can talk to experts, instead dealing with it on their own.
I am on the autism spectrum. I’m well into middle age.
Being autistic is like being in a poker game where you keep getting dealt hands that are high-card, and everyone else is getting straights, flushes, or even just pairs, and you only get out when you’re bankrupt. Yeah, I play the hand I’m dealt, and I’m going to lose every goddamn time.
EDIT: A better analogy is gonna be Pinnochio (or A. I. Artificial Intelligence). I’m never going to be a real boy (any no, it’s not because I’m AFAB and also a gender essentialist). No matter how hard I work at being better, there’s no good fae that’s going to come along and use their fae magic to make me a real boy. I’m never going to have the experiences of the real children, because I’m simply not one of them. I can ape their external characteristics, but I can’t be them. While this–being autistic–is a result of evolution (it’s likely a non-beneficial genetic mutation), humans have largely evolved to survive as a social species, to have close relationships and tribal affiliations. I’m always going to be on the outside, rather than part of an in-group.
Unrelated to your comment, but you should probably do some research on the gender essentialism front. We’ve known gender and sex are different for a long time, and should treat trans people as their gender, not their biological sex.
You misunderstand; I’m making fun of the people that claim that gender and biological sex are the same thing. I am not a gender essentialist, nor am I AFAB.
I don’t have ASD but I have ADHD, and based on my experience I think it’s extremely fair to see knowingly inflicting upon another living being a disability that causes great pain and suffering throughout their entire life, as fucked up and immoral
It’s like pugs and pitbulls, many people can agree in the thought “why are we intentionally creating more canines with terrible disabilities which badly hurt them for the rest of their life?”, so why is it so bad when the same logic is applied to humans?
I think it’s dumb to describe it as “eugenics”, considering that’s a term almost entirely associated in the modern day with Nazism, forced imprisonment/torture/forced sterilization of certain groups, and racist beliefs. Wheras this seems concerned with wanting people to not suffer nearly as much after they’re born, so they’re expressing how they’re upset that people chose to create a new life with more suffering than average when there’s tons of equally good alternatives, and I think that’s pretty different than flat out promoting genocide…
What’s wrong with adoption anyways? It’s pretty selfish to bring a new life into this world for your own personal satisfaction when you could literally just take a child who’s already out there suffering and make them not suffer for no extra loss.
I find it stupid that they describe it as “ruined lives” though. Especially for the parents, like wtf just be a good parent? It’s not like most parents have a kid with no difficult challenges to face whatsoever. When you become a parent you sign up to being exposed to any and every possibility that could come from a kid. If you become a parent and then go “woe is me, I didn’t expect autism so I can’t deal with this, don’t blame me for not parenting correctly” then you shouldn’t have become a parent. The only way parents can “ruin” their own lives is if they’re a shitty parent, which unfortunately a majority of people are…
As an autistic person (diagnosed by an actual professsional, not by tiktok), I must say I am happy existing lol
My life can be pretty miserable sometimes but it is 100% not caused by autism and if anything, I’d say the autism helps.
True, but life is gud ngl
This is the case. One thing is treating all humans with respect, and another is knowingly contributing to someone having a more difficult life. You can love the ones who already exist without passing on your genetic nonsense to new ones.
So people who are more likely to get cancer shouldn’t reproduce? What about people with asthma?
What about people lower on the socioeconomic scale?
If you follow your logic even a few steps it’s gonna get real eugenics-y real fast.
But one of your points… why should someone who can’t afford a child have a child? It’s pretty valid to say that if my current position makes it so my kids would suffer a lot (which, in a corporatist society especially in the US, being very poor unfortunately generally causes immense pains in life) that it’d be immoral for me to create kids and then inflict that same issue upon them without them even being able to consent to it.
I can’t afford to continue college, and I can’t get a scholarship or anything to help – my ADHD was the main factor in me doing poorly in school even though I made A’s on almost every assignment/test given to me (I just didn’t do most of the assignments). I can’t afford housing. I had a seizure just randomly a few weeks ago and now I have USD$80K in medical bills (I can get that reduced a bit, but no way I can pay it off).
I am poor. There is 0 chance that I’m forcing all this stuff on a child, including the ADHD part. No doubt I would at least do good at getting treatment and helping the child with their ADHD completely unlike my parents did (I wasn’t diagnosed until 19 even though it was very obvious I had ADHD and my teachers even told them I probably have ADHD), but especially my flavour of ADHD is clearly not something that I want to pass down to kids in this society. And I’m pretty sick of people treating mental disorders like they’re somehow not nearly as serious as physical/physiological disorders.
If we lived in a socialist society where everyone is treated perfectly like they should be treated, then sure – having a disability wouldn’t be so bad. Even in that case I’d still find it immoral if I made kids that would have as equally terrible of a time just trying to enjoy their own hobbies and work as me. It’s like the biggest fun and life and it feels it’s been ripped out of my hands, I don’t want my kids to deal with that.
And once again, there are still plenty of unadopted kids out there who would otherwise be suffering if they weren’t adopted. I think just having kids at all rather than adopting when that’s the case is immoral, irregardless of if you’re disabled or not.
Also I see a big difference in the cancer part and Autism/ADHD/bipolar/etc. since if your parent or parents have, for example ADHD, it’s almost certain that it will be passed down (like 90-99% chance). That kind of chance of passing down is definitely not the case when it comes to cancer. Like 60% (or more) of people get cancer in their lifetimes anyways so it’s pretty likely you’ll get cancer regardless.
Also cancer is something that can be taken out (if not found late), neurodivergence is not. And cancer doesn’t affect you your whole life, while mental disorders do.
I never attempted to lay out guidelines. As an general time I think anyone who rolls the dice when they can pass on a condition is horribly selfish and lacking in empathy.
I have ASD and ADHD, generally pretty happy to be here.
Autism is a spectrum and most of us are perfectly functional, happy, productive people.
It’s nothing like pugs or pitbulls, frankly that’s kind of offensive. You’re likening us to a genetic mistake. Most of the time I find myself wondering why the neurotypicals are so goddamn dysfunctional.
Who the fuck do you think you are too suggest that I, and many of my friends, shouldn’t exist?
You’re describing eugenics, call it what it is. It’s not my fault you have shitty bedfellows.
Lmao everything you say is clearly purely out of hatred. Why do you value the life of a dog so much less than the life of a human to call them “genetic mistakes”?
And who said that you and your friends shouldn’t exist? Certainly not me. You’re likening “maybe it’s a bad idea to knowingly create someone with a disability with a high likelihood of fucking someone over in life” to “i wish you and all your friends were dead and didn’t exist”.
It’s actually pretty offensive to imply to the large portion of people who have their lives negatively affected by ADHD and ASD that it’s not all that bad and they should suck it up and stop wishing they didn’t have it. Clearly a lot of people in this thread disagree with you, those who have mental disorders including ASD.
Just because you were lucky and don’t suffer much or even at all, means that it’s fine that many (and in my experience most) other people affected by the disorder suffer? That’s extremely selfish.
It is not describing eugenics. You are just saying emotionally charged words to try to make whatever you disagree with look worse. I could call what you believe in “sadism” and it’d have the same validity.
I believe it’s bad to intentionally give a child bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, mood disorders, personality disorders, etc. because those can all cause extreme pain even if it doesn’t seem like a problem when you’re younger. I’m sure you’d agree that it’s immoral to willingly afflict someone with that. But you draw the line at neurodevelopmental disorders for some reason?
disability that causes great pain and suffering throughout their entire life
Motherfucker what are you talking about? I am literally just here to vibe, it’s the fault of the current system for refusing to support any kind of variety. Autism isn’t fucking osteoporosis, I’m not in pain, I’m just fucking different.
Autistic people aren’t suffering unless you’re putting them in a system which refuses to treat them as anything other than subhuman.
Remind me when we’re not going to be in a system which refuses to treat disabled people properly? We live in a world built against disabled people. That is NOT going to change soon. We are corporatist and in most of the first world the right-wing is on the rise. Look at Italy, look at most of western Europe actually. Look how much attention people like DeSantis got before blowing it, and how popular it is to hate on groups like disabled more than it has ever been in recent years – shit it only getting worse. Why bring an innocent kid into that?
Besides, neurodevolopmental disorders in many people can objectively just inflict suffering completely detached from the “system”. I’ve seen them firsthand with both myself and friends with ASD. Especially socially. Obviously won’t apply to every mentally disabled person, but it’s extremely high likelihood – I meet almost entirely people with ASD and/or ADHD who feel extremely lonely and can’t find comfort socially.
Even with treatment ADHD fucks me and many others over in ways completely unrelated to the system. Friends with ASD describe it similarly, especially when ASD doesn’t have as many options in terms of treatment compared to ADHD. When it comes to ADHD, I can’t enjoy myself with hobbies or the satisfaction of my productivity as a person without such a disorder can, I can’t find happiness in my own hobbies if I can’t do them, and I spend many days being upset that I can’t make myself do the stuff I want to do even if I have medication. I can say with confidence I would 100% be happier if I was born in the same circumstances but without ADHD. And this is an extremely common sentiment for neurodevelopmental disorders, you can see it all over the thread.
- I am autistic and have ADHD and I still prefer having been born to the alternative thank you very much!
- Comparing the intentional breeding of universaly harmful traits in dogs to taking a slightly higher risk of ASD which is rarely harmful is quite a stretch.
- Without autistic people many great things wouldn’t exist today. I would argue that without the special interests and hyperfocus of neurodiverse people a lot of scientce and engineering wouldn’t have happened or at least a lot later.
- While ASD and ADHD are often percieved as harmful, they are rarely only harmful and often bring special talent or at least a unique perspective.
The entire “your ADHD is a superpower” rhetoric is extremely harmful to people who have ADHD and generally leads to the struggles of ADHD not being taken seriously. I don’t have a “gift” or a “superpower”, I have a disability…
ADHD has many, MANY objectively bad things about it, and extremely few “good” things. I’d say the only thing that’s positive that comes out of my ADHD is that I have a lot of interests, but even that is a problem in and of itself because it makes me divide my attention between many different things and never complete any of them… ADHD comes with a ton of executive dysfunction and self-regulation problems that tend to fuck you up a lot in life.
The hyperfocus is hardly a benefit considering it generally causes you to waste a ton of time on things that shouldn’t get that much time, and even not considering that I’d say any benefit of hyperfocus is heavily outweighed by just being able to do anything at any time without having to constantly fight yourself over it, since you’d get so much more done. I find that people with both a good amount of Autism and some ADHD do a lot better than people who just have ADHD when it comes to these things, because the ASD can take actual advantage of the hyperfocus, but that’s something a lot of people with ADHD do NOT have…
Also if someone was never born, they wouldn’t know nor care that they weren’t born since they never existed. There’s literally 0 downside to not being born. Any sort of idea that you’d hate to not have been born or that you would prefer to be born than not to be is a purely irrational thought considering that.
And yes, there are people with ASD and ADHD and depression and whatever that live lives that they like. That’s not the point. The point is that the disorders do cause an objective amount of suffering that is higher than those without, especially in this society, and in many cases the suffering causes a lot of harm to the person, so intentionally taking a high chance of that happening to your kid is immoral. I don’t want to intentionally harm my kid, you shouldn’t either.
Btw, it’s not a “slightly higher risk” you are giving your kid like 9x the odds of having ASD if you yourself have ASD. And if you have ADHD you are almost guaranteeing that your kid also has ADHD.
It kind of sounds like you’re saying these parents should have predicted their 3 twins would end up with autism. Which, you know, would be…deeply stupid
As someone on the spectrum its ridiculous to say there life ruined first off its a spectrum so who knows how server there condition is and they can learn to live with help
Antinatalist here - the rhetoric in that post is horrible, and is not representative of antinatalism as a whole.
Antinatalism isn’t the belief that a certain group shouldn’t reproduce - it’s that nobody should. The world is fucked, and nonconsensually bringing anyone into it is morally reprehensible. It’s not eugenics, it’s voluntary extinctionism.
For the people that have been born, however, everyone deserves respect and equity. Ableism, or any other kind of discrimination, is just wrong, and makes you a shitty person. Just like the person who made that post.
This is an incredibly dumb idea. It will also die out for incredibly obvious reasons because everyone else will keep reproducing while antinatalists descend into irrelevancy.
Genesis 1:28 and al-Baqarah 2:187 instruct reproduction. Antinatalists are destined for the fire.
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Wow, the Church of Shar exists in the real world.
I think your belief system is a rare example actual Evil. You’re literally advocating for the elimination of music, of art, of science, of anyone who could even appreciate those things. No more Rembrandt or Dali or Mozart or … anything. And you’ve gotten so twisted up inside, ostensibly because some people live sad, hard lives, that you think that’s a good thing.
Dude, find a therapist. This is no way to live.
Brother if you think advocating for less population is “actual Evil” you’re in for a real hard time out in the world.
They’re not advocating for a lower population. They’re advocating for human extinction.
As in, we should all let the torch of consciousness burn out. I don’t know if I’d call it evil, but it’s definitely one of those severely misguided takes that you almost exclusively see on the internet.
It’s bound to happen.
At current rate we will never leave this planet, and it will die. If not by climate change then the Sun will go Red Giant and swallow us. Or a meteor. Something. All species will go extinct sometime.
You’re here afraid a few people believing that we should go extinct when there are 8 billion people and rising is gonna cause actual extinction. Fucking calm your tits, dude.
I’m advocating for the elimination of poverty, disease, death, pollution, war, hate, and all human suffering.
Sure, there are some neat things in this world that are worth experiencing if you were forced to live. If you’re already alive, of course you should seek to find happiness and enjoyment in the little time you have.
Still doesn’t justify forcing more people into the world to exacerbate the problems we have - overpopulation being a major one.
It’s not evil. Things were fine before us, and things will be fine after us.
Antinatalism is evil because it goes against what God instructed.
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“Things” were not observable by anything with the capability to designate them as such, so no they were not “fine” in any meaningful sense of the word.
You’re literally doing the speech the villain does to make him seem reasonable.
I am literally begging you to find a therapist.
Semantics, but if you really want to get into it, a lack of ability for things to be good or bad is still better than the existence and perpetuation of suffering.
Also, responding to differing worldviews with “see a therapist” and comparing them to a villain is fucking disgusting
Arguing that people must exist so as to maintain art and science is rather silly. Art and science exist for our utility; we are under no obligation to them. If people decide not to reproduce, that is their right.
Isn’t it just the belief that nobody should have kids though? I’d have thought the while extinction part would rank higher than the culture loss. And evil seems a bit extreme, sounds more like apathy and loss of hope to me. Not saying there aren’t some messed up people in the group though.
sounds more like apathy and loss of hope to me.
Yeah, this. My biggest issue with the fundamental anti-natalist position is that it’s a totally blackpilled one that ultimately devalues any positive experiences life brings when compared with even the potential for any bad thing to happen, regardless of magnitude.
It’s not eugenics, it’s voluntary extinctionism.
“Don’t worry guys, that person doesn’t represent us - what they should have said is that they wish for all of humanity to die out.”
This is an absolutely insane thing to advocate for. I hope you come to realize that in time.
I’m not saying we should kill people, I’m saying making more is wrong.
It is a nonconsensual act whereupon you are forcing life and all its travesty onto another being, when they were perfectly fine not existing.
Call me insane if you want, I couldn’t care less. Humans are a plague upon both other humans and this planet as a whole, and bringing someone else into the world to be both a victim and perpetrator of the issue is wrong.
Why stop at humans? Ducks are pretty reprehensible as well.
And the less said about koalas, the better.
Humans are the primary cause for global suffering. Ducks are pretty fucked tho, they could probably go as well.
Mosquitoes I shouldn’t even have to mention. I think we can all agree those fuckers need to go
I think your perspective about life is blinded by pessimism, and you’re treating that pessimism as absolute fact. Many people view life as a wonderful thing, are thrilled to exist for the time that they do, and see creating a new life to experience the wonders of living as a gift.
Humans are a plague upon both other humans and this planet as a whole
You’re sounding like Agent Smith from the matrix. Come on. Unplug from the negative feedback loop for a bit.
You call it pessimism, I call it realism.
There are good things to experience, yes. If you’re already alive, then by all means, seek to find happiness and enjoyment. Don’t force someone else into that endless struggle. You can make no guarantees that their life won’t be one of pure suffering, and that’s not a risk I’m willing to take.
And again, we are destroying this planet - not just for us, but for all life on it. We are the problem.
You call it pessimism, I call it realism.
Says every person with depression ever.
I agree with the other commenter recommending therapy. When you don’t see it as “life is pain and the future is hopeless”, you might sound less like a scifi villain calling for human extinction.
“Existence is suffering” is a foundational tenet for many worldviews and religions, not just antinatalism. Existence is literally the first cause to all suffering - no existence, no suffering.
Acknowledging that doesn’t make me depressed or pessimistic, it’s just acceptance how things are.
You’re free to live in whatever fantasy you want, though. That’s your right.
Also, responding to differing worldviews with “get help” is generally bad form
Your worldview is literally calling for the extinction of all humans. You need to come back to reality and stop convincing yourself that this is normal or healthy.
Dude if people really have such a problem with life, they can in fact opt out of it at pretty much any point down the line.
So if your kid doesn’t want to fight in the water wars you’re just gonna say “lol kys nerd”? Tragic.
Firstly, I don’t have a kid. Being sterile (and also just not wanting any), I am quite unlikely to ever have a kid. Ideally we as a society would work to avoid water wars happening. My point is that we should improve our collective state of affairs somewhat, rather than resigning ourselves to the idea that to exist is to suffer like a bunch of loser doomers.
There’s no fixing to this shit and deep down you know this.
I saw how humanity got together to deal with COVID. Spoiler: they fucking didn’t.
What a garbage species we are.
If someone experiences so much suffering that they are pushed to “opt out of it”, it would have been better not to force them to live and experience the suffering in the first place. Just because someone can take themselves out of it doesn’t make the suffering okay to inflict.
Taking a quick look at the comments I see we’re back to 2000s autism speaks bullshit.
Autistic people aren’t suffering unless you’re putting them in a system that treats them as subhuman.
Autistic people aren’t suffering unless you’re putting them in a system that treats them as subhuman.
Ah, I see you’re familiar with society as well.
Yes most autistic people shouldn’t suffer if we dismantle the oppressive societal constructs and stigma around the condition and treat them as human.
Most people shouldn’t suffer if we break down the social constructs and stigma around them, from race, gender and sex, class, and many other factors.
Antinatalism is not about selectively culling autistic people. It is about the realization that society sucks and the societal constructs we have are likely to increase suffering and so we shouldn’t have kids anymore until those issues are resolved.
I am gay, and a racial minority, and an antinatalist. I would hate to have a child knowing they would likely have to face racial discrimination just as much as I do not find it moral to have a child because they may be gay, or autistic, or gender nonconforming, or poor. All those things would likely increase their suffering.
But I wouldn’t mind adopting any of those kids, even an autistic child, because live people are people and deserve love and compassion. Antinatalism is about the non-alive children that don’t exist and the stance that they shouldn’t ever come to be, no matter what they end up being because in our current world, live likely won’t be easy, they would likely contribute to the global environment crisis, and will likely increase the suffering in the world. And also they cannot consent to being forced into existence.
I would hate to have a child knowing they would likely have to face racial discrimination
Yep easier to die than dealing with the problem and, you know trying to do something. You know thank god everyone before us choose that instead of striving for social progress, that’s precisely why society has been steadily progressing towards amelioration for at the VERY least the past 500 years.
I do not find it moral to have a child because they may be gay, or autistic, or gender nonconforming, or poor
So… that, my friend, is turbo-eugenics. Yes, because you finding it immoral to have kids because they could be those things means that, if you had a mean to have kids, without those risks it would at least be less immoral. Oh and before you start to find excuse : making every argument for something and just saying at the end that it is bad is not being against something.
Well well well, just look at any job and watch how people are treated.
I think antinatalism is a really interesting philosophy. But it falls apart as soon as you discriminate - It is fair to question the ethics of reproduction, but as soon as you discriminate you end up in eugenics territory. This subreddit is really hostile sadly. there is a lot of ableism under the disguise of antinatalism
True antinatalism would say everyone should not have kids, regardless of anything. Of course nobody is enforcing this so it’s a kinda do whatever but maybe think twice before having kids.
Why is this subreddit full of idiots? They are misrepresenting antinatalism so fucking hard.
just popping in to say I love being alive and I’m thankful for my parents keeping me! I made friends with a seagull today. couldn’t have done that if I was never born. fuck yeah!
I honestly can’t tell if this is sarcasm.
unfortunately, I get that a lot. I’m just kind of a weird dude.
Is reasonable to assume people wouldn’t be that sarcastic in a place like this imo.
peak autism board exchange
This
I made friends with a seagull today.
I need more details about this.
That… is a dangerous skill Seagulls are embodiement of pure chaos, be careful with such power
Experience has shown me that the people who are thankful for their life is in the minority compared to the people who suffer their life.
people who suffer their life have a need to express it. People who are fine don’t. Simple survivor bias
That sucks
I have seen people behave in all sorts of ways
