“Just turn the other cheek, be the bigger person, take the high road, and as long as you give everyone the benefit of the doubt good things will come to you”. All phrases used by abusers to manipulate people into taking abuse. After all if you keep being a good person and don’t retaliate you will be rewarded with an eternity of paradise and those who hurt will eternally suffer ::snickers with the collection plate::
Fascists only know one language, and that is violence. They firmly believe “Might makes right” and so, we must show them strength such that they fear to challenge us ever again.
That’s a lovely sentiment, but in reality some people just need to be beaten violently. All you’re doing is putting that responsibility on someone else.
So if you were walking through the streets of Mariupol and saw a russian soldier violently raping a child (I use this example because it’s not uncommon) you’d, what, ask them nicely to stop, let them get on with it?
in fact, not punching a nazi when you have the opportunity is in itself a net negative, so we can say it’s immoral to not punch a nazi whenever possible.
I don’t think violently hurting people is a good idea.
A lot of people forget, due to the exceptionally stable nature of modern Western society, that society is built on violence. We, as citizens of a polity, subcontract out our violence to a central state. And this is, to at least some degree, a good thing - there’s a central entity which can be observed and judged and regulated, rather than a million people all trying to enforce and judge one another’s usage of violence as justified or unjustified.
But ultimately, such subcontracting of violence is conditional - as long as the central state represents our rights adequately, to at least some degree, people are willing to continue to surrender their own sovereign right to commit violence to it. Whenever the central state does not represent a citizen’s rights adequately, the citizen often withdraws that surrender of sovereignty - either in total or, more often, conditionally - to protect their own rights.
When you make a contract - even in something as small as buying an apple - you are relying on the threat of force from the state to back it - “We will forcibly remove property or freedom from you if you violate this contract.” Violence is a part of everyday life - what’s important is to act in such a way that minimizes the need for it. In the case of defense of LGBT rights, sometimes that means using violence as a means of deterrence against the violence of bigots that is insufficiently deterred by state action.
Pork barrel spending is a saying, I think you’re describing the Four boxes of liberty. Jury doesn’t seem to do a damn thing when they just get pardoned shortly after conviction, we are somewhere between jury and cartridge.
Violence is typically taken up by actors on their behalf. In an organized state this is, well, generally the state. In non-state activity, this tends to be their friends and family. In societies with weak or nonexistent centralized states, you see this in the form of honor societies being willing to have the young and healthy take up arms and feuds on behalf of offenses against elderly, children, or disabled who they have ties with.
I feel no desire to outsource offense, and that is probably what bugs me most. Your theory seems to justify expansion and to turn outward instead of inward. Perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying in this regard.
To every force there is an equal and opposite counterpart. We have established that violence to gain advantage is justified, and we outsourced our violence to a much larger entity. Therefore by this fundamental basal ethos, we must expect that that larger entity shares our values.
Not really. As I mentioned, the outsourcing of violence is conditional - the larger entity can only expect compliance insofar as it seeks to address the concerns of those under its jurisdiction.
Only now, this entity has many opportunities where it has no larger rival. It must then use violence to gain advantage. This plays out as an expansionist policy because as weaker entities are encountered, this government must act in the exploitive interest of its constituency and destroy or incorporate the smaller entity’s resources…
How does that follow in any way?
That is what I see as far as I can gather from this abstraction of violence as a basal motivation underpinning all social engagement.
Violence here is not a ‘basal motivation’, violence is a constraint upon action. There is a distinct difference. You don’t buy an apple because you crave to use the coercive apparatus of the state against an innocent merchant. You are restrained in your options to purchase, rather than theft, by the coercive apparatus of the state; and on the other side of the coin, that same coercive apparatus forbids the merchant explicitly cheating you in this interaction.
If you think that cooperation is the law of the jungle between strangers, you really need to read up on early human societies.
I’m also super cynical about the legal system, with extensive first hand experience of how it is not in any way shape or form a justice system outside of fantasy fiction. If you do not have around $250k to burn, the US legal system is not made to help you.
Man, if you have ever done any research on alternative legal systems to modern, Western legal systems, it might become more apparent that there are far worse systems out there than our’s - even including the US, which is one of the poorer of the modern lot. And in societies without robust legal systems to regulate violence, things are even fucking worse than that.
Pointing out that the rich have outsized advantages in our system is true, and a necessary point to make as a general criticism of the system. Using it as some sort of proof that only the rich benefit from it is utter insanity.
From some perspective, you might say I was acting as the larger outsourced entity in the aforementioned scenario, but then what was my motivational factor? In truth, it was kindness, empathy, and altruism. I saw a need, I recognized the opportunity, and I put myself in danger for the benefit of someone else and with no potential benefit to myself.
Okay? How does that in any way contradict that the usage of violence as deterrent in societies?
Violence is not the basic force driving life and decisions. It’s just one of the basic factors that helps to structure our society (and all societies).
Non-violence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man.
I get what you’re going for, but maybe work on the wording? Because my immediate thought was, alright, you lay on the ground and I’ll drop a nuclear bomb, and let’s see which was more destructive.
I understand this statement in principle but unfortunately thats not how the world works. If you tolerate intolerance you will just end up opressed or dead.
Fascists don’t have any problems hurting and killing whoever they deem not worthy of living, they should be met with the same prejudice.
You have two opposing groups, let’s call them a and B. Group a says “we dont think group b has a right to exist and we are prepared to get violent” and group b says “we will never use violence”. How long do you expect group b to last?
Fascists are mercifully not common where I live, but if I hear one mouthing off they’re going to get a savage beating.
Surely the answer is both sides decided the other doesnt have a right to exist. There’s no difference between labeling someone a Nazi or labeling someone trans when the only point is to excuse violence on that group.
People are letting their emotions cloud their better judgment, or they haven’t developed better judgment yet. Unfortunately people think very short term and often mold reasoning around their actions after the fact.
A trans person is a trans person does not have a choice about their identity. Being a nazi is a choice you make because you want to hate people. A nazi merely needs to decide not to be a cunt and the problem resolves itself. The only way a trans person can make peace with a nazi is by hiding who they are and living a lie. It’s not the same. And if you think it is then either A: you’re delusional or B: you know I’m right but you’re also a nazi.
To put it a different way, should black people go around in white face to make the kkk happy?
They are similar in american society because both would argue they have a right to exist, and both are targets for violence in public if they are overt about it. I’m simply saying neither should be attacked, the whole point is to coexist. People need to learn how to de-escalate and create bridges, not hit each other in the face with bricks.
Edit to answer your question: Obviously not, black people don’t want to be white people. Trans people do want to pass as a specific gender.
Fascism is an ideology based on the oppression of other people. The whole ideology is based around not coexisting with other people. And it’s not just trans people fascists have a problem with. It’s literally anyone who isn’t straight, white and also a fascist.
The only way to coexist with fascists is to pretend to be one at which point, what you’re doing is worse than violence you’re pretending there isn’t a problem and allowing them to hurt other people. Fascists choose violence as their plan A. If you allow them to spew their hate you might as well lynch an immigrant yourself.
Or do you mean we should protect fascists? Because no. That is not how we get and keep our rights. We get and keep our rights by negotiating, and political power, un fortunately, is stored in barrels. I think that’s how that saying goes.
Dehumanizing a fictional enemy lets collectivists and terrorist supporters feel like they are in a real war without being in one and also let’s them balance the cognitive dissonance of a discourse that claims to accept others while in practice they just want to get rid of others
Yes, it’s a shame fascists are so hell bent on doing that to us. But perhaps if they experience consequences, they may elect to do literally anything else with their life than harass queer people.
But I know I’m being too optimistic.
Some fascists would rather die than be better human beings… So it is only generous to oblige them.
Indeed. One has to understand that the people calling for violence in these threads usually never get to the stage of wondering what happens when their circular reasoning is used against them
One problem with “fascists should be met w violence” is in the lack of definition for fascist. I can tell you, in my experience, saying something like “I don’t want universal healthcare” is enough to earn me the label of “fascist” in leftwing forums like Lemmy and Reddit.
If the logic is “people who disagree are fascists, and fascists deserve violence” or more simply “people who disagree deserve violence”… well isn’t that what fascists say??
Do you agree that that example at least highlights a serious problem in the chain of logic?
No, that’s you and others being petty, that’s not fascism. If you want other people to be dead on the basis of who they were born as and attempt to make those ideals a reality you are a fascist and death for you would be a net positive. Don’t be a crybaby, be realistic and stop being such a reactionary child.
Edit: And that is not reason, that is just myopic self justification. If you have the problem that people are constantly calling you a fascist and you’re not arguing for death camps and absolute authoritarianism, then the thing that’s going on is that you’re just an insufferable and controlling asshole.
Edit: Also, point blank, supporting fascists makes you a fascist.
I don’t think violently hurting people is a good idea.
Totally depends on who you’re hurting.
No.
Even animals don’t deserve to be treated violently.
That implies animals are lesser than fascists.
“Just turn the other cheek, be the bigger person, take the high road, and as long as you give everyone the benefit of the doubt good things will come to you”. All phrases used by abusers to manipulate people into taking abuse. After all if you keep being a good person and don’t retaliate you will be rewarded with an eternity of paradise and those who hurt will eternally suffer ::snickers with the collection plate::
Fascists only know one language, and that is violence. They firmly believe “Might makes right” and so, we must show them strength such that they fear to challenge us ever again.
Tell that to the fascists.
I tell it to everybody, whether they are actively violent or not.
That’s a lovely sentiment, but in reality some people just need to be beaten violently. All you’re doing is putting that responsibility on someone else.
I don’t believe in justifying violence on humans or animals.
So if you were walking through the streets of Mariupol and saw a russian soldier violently raping a child (I use this example because it’s not uncommon) you’d, what, ask them nicely to stop, let them get on with it?
I agree, that’s why we need to violently harm those who would violently harm us, our loved ones and others like us and our loved ones.
That’s the greatest justification the government needed, do not complain when it is used against you
Unless they’re fascists. Because punching nazis is a net positive for the world
in fact, not punching a nazi when you have the opportunity is in itself a net negative, so we can say it’s immoral to not punch a nazi whenever possible.
Punching Nazis is always self defence, since being a Nazi in public is an act of violence.
A lot of people forget, due to the exceptionally stable nature of modern Western society, that society is built on violence. We, as citizens of a polity, subcontract out our violence to a central state. And this is, to at least some degree, a good thing - there’s a central entity which can be observed and judged and regulated, rather than a million people all trying to enforce and judge one another’s usage of violence as justified or unjustified.
But ultimately, such subcontracting of violence is conditional - as long as the central state represents our rights adequately, to at least some degree, people are willing to continue to surrender their own sovereign right to commit violence to it. Whenever the central state does not represent a citizen’s rights adequately, the citizen often withdraws that surrender of sovereignty - either in total or, more often, conditionally - to protect their own rights.
When you make a contract - even in something as small as buying an apple - you are relying on the threat of force from the state to back it - “We will forcibly remove property or freedom from you if you violate this contract.” Violence is a part of everyday life - what’s important is to act in such a way that minimizes the need for it. In the case of defense of LGBT rights, sometimes that means using violence as a means of deterrence against the violence of bigots that is insufficiently deterred by state action.
Or, when the state threatens us, as it so often does.
As indicated at that first pride.
Gotta remind the complacent goons that oppression has consequences. 👍
Political power is, as they say (i think they say this) kept in barrels
And you should drop those barrels on cops.
Pork barrel spending is a saying, I think you’re describing the Four boxes of liberty. Jury doesn’t seem to do a damn thing when they just get pardoned shortly after conviction, we are somewhere between jury and cartridge.
No, im pretty sure political power is kept in barrels, and we take it out when we need to use it. Because it comes from there.
Oh shit, maybe we don’t just store it there, but we make it there? Like whiskey?
Old saying from… Korea, i wanna say? Maybe mongolia?
I don’t remember exactly, but damn i wonder if its tasty, like whiskey.
Fuck, this is an insanely good comment!
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Violence is typically taken up by actors on their behalf. In an organized state this is, well, generally the state. In non-state activity, this tends to be their friends and family. In societies with weak or nonexistent centralized states, you see this in the form of honor societies being willing to have the young and healthy take up arms and feuds on behalf of offenses against elderly, children, or disabled who they have ties with.
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It’s not their theory. If someone explains basic theory of relativity to you, will you call it their theory?
Name checks out. Hit me next!
What?
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Not really. As I mentioned, the outsourcing of violence is conditional - the larger entity can only expect compliance insofar as it seeks to address the concerns of those under its jurisdiction.
How does that follow in any way?
Violence here is not a ‘basal motivation’, violence is a constraint upon action. There is a distinct difference. You don’t buy an apple because you crave to use the coercive apparatus of the state against an innocent merchant. You are restrained in your options to purchase, rather than theft, by the coercive apparatus of the state; and on the other side of the coin, that same coercive apparatus forbids the merchant explicitly cheating you in this interaction.
If you think that cooperation is the law of the jungle between strangers, you really need to read up on early human societies.
Man, if you have ever done any research on alternative legal systems to modern, Western legal systems, it might become more apparent that there are far worse systems out there than our’s - even including the US, which is one of the poorer of the modern lot. And in societies without robust legal systems to regulate violence, things are even fucking worse than that.
Pointing out that the rich have outsized advantages in our system is true, and a necessary point to make as a general criticism of the system. Using it as some sort of proof that only the rich benefit from it is utter insanity.
Okay? How does that in any way contradict that the usage of violence as deterrent in societies?
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Violence is not the basic force driving life and decisions. It’s just one of the basic factors that helps to structure our society (and all societies).
Non-violence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man.
It’s not, though.
I get what you’re going for, but maybe work on the wording? Because my immediate thought was, alright, you lay on the ground and I’ll drop a nuclear bomb, and let’s see which was more destructive.
It’s a direct quote from Gandhi.
Gandhi was a very flawed man.
And Ghandi was a fucking idiot.
Well that sure is an opinion I haven’t heard before
Fascist lives don’t matter.
How do you think Pride managed to become a reality? With “thank you” cards?
“Thank you for respecting our identity :)” written on a brick.
Show it to friends, ‘show it’ to foes.
I understand this statement in principle but unfortunately thats not how the world works. If you tolerate intolerance you will just end up opressed or dead. Fascists don’t have any problems hurting and killing whoever they deem not worthy of living, they should be met with the same prejudice.
This. Violence against fascists isn’t really violence, it’s enforcement of the societal End User License Agreement.
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You understand how circular that reasoning is right?
You have two opposing groups, let’s call them a and B. Group a says “we dont think group b has a right to exist and we are prepared to get violent” and group b says “we will never use violence”. How long do you expect group b to last?
Fascists are mercifully not common where I live, but if I hear one mouthing off they’re going to get a savage beating.
Surely the answer is both sides decided the other doesnt have a right to exist. There’s no difference between labeling someone a Nazi or labeling someone trans when the only point is to excuse violence on that group.
People are letting their emotions cloud their better judgment, or they haven’t developed better judgment yet. Unfortunately people think very short term and often mold reasoning around their actions after the fact.
A trans person is a trans person does not have a choice about their identity. Being a nazi is a choice you make because you want to hate people. A nazi merely needs to decide not to be a cunt and the problem resolves itself. The only way a trans person can make peace with a nazi is by hiding who they are and living a lie. It’s not the same. And if you think it is then either A: you’re delusional or B: you know I’m right but you’re also a nazi.
To put it a different way, should black people go around in white face to make the kkk happy?
They are similar in american society because both would argue they have a right to exist, and both are targets for violence in public if they are overt about it. I’m simply saying neither should be attacked, the whole point is to coexist. People need to learn how to de-escalate and create bridges, not hit each other in the face with bricks.
Edit to answer your question: Obviously not, black people don’t want to be white people. Trans people do want to pass as a specific gender.
Fascism is an ideology based on the oppression of other people. The whole ideology is based around not coexisting with other people. And it’s not just trans people fascists have a problem with. It’s literally anyone who isn’t straight, white and also a fascist.
The only way to coexist with fascists is to pretend to be one at which point, what you’re doing is worse than violence you’re pretending there isn’t a problem and allowing them to hurt other people. Fascists choose violence as their plan A. If you allow them to spew their hate you might as well lynch an immigrant yourself.
Fascists arent people, so i agree.
Or do you mean we should protect fascists? Because no. That is not how we get and keep our rights. We get and keep our rights by negotiating, and political power, un fortunately, is stored in barrels. I think that’s how that saying goes.
What is the point of this? Fascists are obviously people. There is no non-person fascist. What do you gain by pretending otherwise?
Dehumanizing a fictional enemy lets collectivists and terrorist supporters feel like they are in a real war without being in one and also let’s them balance the cognitive dissonance of a discourse that claims to accept others while in practice they just want to get rid of others
It’s fascinating, actually
Not in any of the ways that matter.
Yes, it’s a shame fascists are so hell bent on doing that to us. But perhaps if they experience consequences, they may elect to do literally anything else with their life than harass queer people.
But I know I’m being too optimistic.
Some fascists would rather die than be better human beings… So it is only generous to oblige them.
Unfortunately, showing a brick to a fascist’s face will likely just reinforce their bullshit. Still effective though.
Fascists are cowards. A brick to the face will keep most of them from putting themselves in situations conducive to future bricks to the face
I’d certainly hope so, but the idiots that I have the unfortunate necessity of dealing with are way too dense to make that connection.
It is an objectively good thing for the world when a violent bigot gets their head caved in.
Nazis arent people
Not for long if you have a brick handy anyway
Yeah, you’re right. I really wish these fascists would stop trying to hurt people who did nothing to them.
Nah, Nazis don’t deserve respect or peace. See the paradox of tolerance.
When those people want me dead it’s mere self defense.
I agree. But you have to defend yourself against people who are violent against you for not being up to their standards and beliefs.
But if you are attacked for being who you are, feel free to use words like “please stop, don’t do this” instead of a brick.
Then the rest of us will handle it and accept thank-you’s later.
Fascist lives dont matter
Sounds like you’re fine with watching others get hurt as long as it isn’t you.
Fascists aren’t people.
neither do i. good thing fascists aren’t people.
I do
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Crazy responses huh? If it makes you feel better, after they chase off any voices of reason, these type of people resort to eating eachother.
Indeed. One has to understand that the people calling for violence in these threads usually never get to the stage of wondering what happens when their circular reasoning is used against them
Fascinating
What is the voice of reason for fascists?
It’s a good question.
One problem with “fascists should be met w violence” is in the lack of definition for fascist. I can tell you, in my experience, saying something like “I don’t want universal healthcare” is enough to earn me the label of “fascist” in leftwing forums like Lemmy and Reddit.
If the logic is “people who disagree are fascists, and fascists deserve violence” or more simply “people who disagree deserve violence”… well isn’t that what fascists say??
Do you agree that that example at least highlights a serious problem in the chain of logic?
No, that’s you and others being petty, that’s not fascism. If you want other people to be dead on the basis of who they were born as and attempt to make those ideals a reality you are a fascist and death for you would be a net positive. Don’t be a crybaby, be realistic and stop being such a reactionary child.
Edit: And that is not reason, that is just myopic self justification. If you have the problem that people are constantly calling you a fascist and you’re not arguing for death camps and absolute authoritarianism, then the thing that’s going on is that you’re just an insufferable and controlling asshole.
Edit: Also, point blank, supporting fascists makes you a fascist.