• squaresinger@lemmy.world
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    3 days ago

    Monolinugal people thinking that the pronounciation of some rare words is the big issue when learning languages…

    Dude, try memorizing the correct grammatical gender for every single noun or every single exception to regular declinations. And that’s just for a medium-difficulty language like German.

    You know how there’s simple English versions of news articles? The same thing exists with German. And the language in these Simple German articles is more difficult than the regular English version.

    English is THE easy mode language of the world, which is why e.g. pretty much anyone in Europe defaults to it if they are speaking to anyone who speaks a different native language. Like, if someone from Austria speaks with someone from Ukraine, they will use English.

    • Chloé 🥕@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      3 days ago

      i mean, no, the reason english is the default language of the world is due to (british, and then american) imperialism

      french and latin were once the default languages of europe for the same reason

      and how hard a language is to learn is kinda irrelevant, because it will always depend on what language(s) you already know. for monolingual speakers of english, it’s hard to learn a language with grammatical genders, but if you already speak a language with those, that won’t be a problem

      • glorkon@lemmy.world
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        3 days ago

        “for monolingual speakers of english, it’s hard to learn a language with grammatical genders, but if you already speak a language with those, that won’t be a problem”

        Not necessarily. I’m German and I still have to learn French grammatical genders by heart, because they don’t necessarily match ours. Familiarity with the concept doesn’t make it any easier, just less weird.

        Example: The tower. LA tour, feminine. DER Turm, masculine.

          • owsei@programming.dev
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            3 days ago

            What? no

            I know portugueses and spanish and I’m learning french and it make it all even more complex

            Since in one language it’s something, in anofher it’s something else

          • jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de
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            3 days ago

            Lol, they don’t even match consistently between Portuguese and Spanish which are much closer, even when the noun is literally the same (e.g.a água vs el água)

      • squaresinger@lemmy.world
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        3 days ago

        but if you already speak a language with those, that won’t be a problem

        Tell me you are a monolinugal English speaker without telling me.

        The problem is not wrapping your mind around the concept of grammatical genders, but that you have to memorize them for every word. And they are different in any language with grammatical gender.

        For example:

        • Italian: La luna (female), il sole (male)
        • German: Der Mond (male), die Sonne (female)

        or

        • German: Das Huhn (neuter)
        • Italian: il pollo (male)
        • Spanish: la gallina (female)

        Knowing the grammatical gender of something in one language won’t help you one bit when learning another language. In fact, it might be even detrimental, because it’s different in every language.

        • Chloé 🥕@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          3 days ago

          Tell me you are a monolinugal English speaker without telling me.

          tu penses mon nom d’utilisatrice vient de quelle langue?

          of course not every language has the same grammatical genders, but if you already speak a language with them, you don’t have to learn the concept, you already get it

          when learning Spanish in school, grammatical gender was really not an issue, cause i already speak french (to be fair, french and spanish will often gender the same words the same way, which greatly helps ofc)

          to me, it was much harder to grasp the distinction between ser and estar, for example. two fundamental verbs that, in french, get translated to the same thing

      • owsei@programming.dev
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        3 days ago

        The ideia of gramatical gender is kept, but the specific genders may be different, so it’s still pretty hard

        At least that’s how I felt when learning spanish or french

    • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
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      3 days ago

      try memorizing the correct grammatical gender

      Americans don’t memorize all that shit for English either. We just start using words. German is the same. Don’t try and learn it out of a textbook, just start talking and reading.

      And the best part is you can pronounce their words pretty logically.

      • squaresinger@lemmy.world
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        3 days ago

        Americans don’t memorize all that shit for English either.

        … because it doesn’t exist in English. Of course you don’t remember things that don’t exist.

        Don’t try and learn it out of a textbook, just start talking and reading.

        Yep. That’s why you can pick out every American stumbling through German even after they spent 20 years in the country, because they can’t get any of the things that you have to memorize right.

        And the best part is you can pronounce their words pretty logically.

        If you think that what they teach in American schools in German, then maybe. But seriously, pronunciation is so not the hardest part about learning languages.

        And as I said, German isn’t even a hard language either. That goes to e.g. Finnish or Hungarian (at least for western languages). But English is an easy mode language.

      • grue@lemmy.world
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        3 days ago

        What the fuck do you think learning vocabulary by reading is, if not memorization? You’re just doing it subconsciously rather than intentionally.

        • Dasus@lemmy.world
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          3 days ago

          Language acquisition and rote memorisation aren’t exactly 1:1.

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_acquisition

          It’s like the difference between reading a dictionary and only going forward after you’ve learned a page by heart vs simply starting to read simpler novels even when you don’t understand all the words, and picking it up as you go along. Understanding form context.

        • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
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          3 days ago

          That’s not memorizing the genders. You see the word, you know the word.

          I know that the Spanish word for table is mesa. I didn’t sit there and think “the base part is mes and the a means it’s female”. The word is just mesa. And la mesa looks right because I’ve seen it. I didn’t think “it needs to be la because it’s feminine”.

    • FundMECFS@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      2 days ago

      I don’t get why people keep saying German is harder to learn than english. I struggled much more learning english as a second language than German.

    • Treczoks@lemmy.world
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      3 days ago

      Well, they all speak it in western Europe because it is the language of the victors of WWII, and is since taught in schools.

      We have English from class 5 (mandatory), French or Latin from class 7 (mandatory), then, optional, Latin or French (whatever you did not take) from class 9, and something like Italian or Spanish from class 11. Some schools offer wider selection like Polish or Russian, or even Greek like they did in my nephews school.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      3 days ago

      English is THE easy mode language of the world

      English isn’t easy at all. It’s an obnoxiously difficult, confusing, and contradictory mash up of half a dozen Mediterranean languages.

      If you want an easy language, learn Esperanto. If you want a business language learn English.

    • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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      3 days ago

      English is THE easy mode language of the world

      hahahaha, no, it is not. A significant amount of words are ambiguous if isolated from their context (take “fire”: as in fire a shot, a flame, fire a worker, “this is fire”?), pronunciation is all over the place, it feels like there are more exceptions than rules when it comes to past-present-future verbs

      • squaresinger@lemmy.world
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        3 days ago

        Only someone who has never learned a second language thinks that this is difficult or somehow special to English.

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          3 days ago

          As someone who has learned four different languages and studied a dozen more, English is on the harder end of the spectrum to grasp phonetically. The nice thing about English (and other Romance languages) is the alphabet. Compare that to Chinese, with a laundry list of characters to absorb or Arabic which omits a bunch of vowel sounds, and you experience a lot of trouble.

          But compare English to Spanish or German and you’ll find it to be unusually confusing and difficult. Pronunciations, secondary meanings to certain terms, and the haphazard grammar all make English a game of learned reflexes rather than logical progressions.

          That’s not special to English, but it is more pronounced in what is effectively a mongrel outcropping of assorted Western European dialects.

          • squaresinger@lemmy.world
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            3 days ago

            The thing with English is you just have to learn phonetics by hearing, not by reading. It’s quite simple actually. It only has a very limited amount of language-specific sounds, and you just learn the written and spoken forms of each word individually.

            The really nice thing about English is that everything’s prepositions not cases, there are no grammatical genders and half of the words are just Latin. If you know any other romance language, you can just re-use all the latin-based words you know and you’ll be mostly fine. You only have to be aware of a handful of false friends and that’s it.

            I don’t think that English has more words with secondary meanings than other languages or anything like that.

            I, in fact, do speak German, Italian, Spanish, English and a bit of Welsh. German is my first language, so can’t say how that is to learn as a second language, but English was by far the easiest to learn of these languages. Sure, it’s the least phonetic one of these, but that’s really the only disadvantage it has.

            • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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              3 days ago

              The thing with English is you just have to learn phonetics by hearing, not by reading.

              Sure. And you could say the same about Chinese, which is a fairly simple language to learn if you never want to be literate. But as so much of our communication is via text, the literacy angle is an insurmountable part of language learning.

              • squaresinger@lemmy.world
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                3 days ago

                English spelling is easy enough that in 95% of cases you can match up the spoken word with the written word.

                How’s the percentage of that for Chinese?

                In fact, if you want a language where it’s actually hard to know how a word is pronounced if you only ever see it in the written form, you gave yourself the answer.

                • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                  3 days ago

                  in 95% of cases you can match up the spoken word with the written word.

                  I’d be curious to know if that’s actually true.

                  How’s the percentage of that for Chinese?

                  If you know your radicals? We’ll say “also 95%” just to be annoying.

                  But how do you learn the radicals? Same way you learn all the standard English pronunciations. Repetition.

        • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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          3 days ago

          I never implied those problems are special to English, but that English is not “THE easy mode language” due to those problems, plus many others I didn’t mention

      • cepelinas@sopuli.xyz
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        3 days ago

        Šovė į kažką = shot someone, šovė į orkaitę = put in oven. This is pretty common for all languages words can have multiple meanings.

      • leftzero@lemmynsfw.com
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        3 days ago

        The old man the boat.

        Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.

        Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo.

      • AItoothbrush@lemmy.zip
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        3 days ago

        Lol the english monolinguals. Hungarian “Lóg”=to hang, “lóg az iskolából”=to skip school. Extremely common thing in every language. Also most languages are irregular just to different extents. English irregularity is mainly in some of the past tense forms and spelling. I would count gender as an irregularity(depending on how it works in the language) which english doesnt have for example. English doesnt have cases which are another struggle for a lot of people learning languages. Then there are languages that are not as irregular, but they have extremely complicated internal logic which is just harder to learn than just learning by a case by case basis. Id put hungarian here where there are usually reasons for why things happen but it just got lost in an older version of hungarian or its so complex theres no point to learning it. Also there are things that do actually seem to be completely fucking random and are even annoying as a native speaker.